Fender tag fun.

[33 IMP]

In addition to moparnations post on part number dates, my car build date is Feb 25th, 1969. My exhaust manifolds weren't cast until Feb 27th (which was also my Daughter Jennifer's birth date!) and my engine wasn't built/stamped until Feb 28th.

That is "scheduled " build date. Doesn't mean that's when it was really put together.

 

[Maddogmike1001]

Not false, if the tag matches what is present then its true.

Well said my man well said

 

[Maddogmike1001]

stirring up the pot is one of my favorite hobbies

 

[Maddogmike1001]

Your post #41 CLEARLY proved that.....

Maybe your too sloshed on:

View attachment 683283

this is the only answer I need to give you sir

 

[moparnation74]

View attachment 683425 this is the only answer I need to give you sir

Lol....that was an answer no one here needed and it’s not impressive btw....but that was your intent was it not?

When people deviate like this from the actual subject matter truly explains what was pointed out earlier....

 

[moparnation74]

Are you referring to me having a car without a tag? Well I have had many with and without and my comments were/are not in reference to myself or my own actions, they are merely my opinion reference fender tags.

Look, I respect the concourse restoration community (can't say I understand it really) but I do respect it. That said, what bothers me is the near fanatical screams every time fender tags are mentioned. It is a self licking ice cream cone; the hobby places all of this importance on the tags but yet absolutely denies anyone with a car that doesn't have a tag the right to get one based on this "fake" and "fraudulent" BS. There is a huge difference between a restored car with matching numbers and date coded parts and just a car with a fender tag. It has created a rift in the community and drives some away from it IMO. I thought the Corvette guys were crazy, but they have nothing on the resto Mopar community.

Given that you are in the OE restoration business, do you believe you could spot a remade fender tag or a tag that was different that what the car has? I suspect the answer is a very loud "YES, of course". Therefore, you would not be fooled by a remade tag and thus would not be taken by one. Of course the next argument is that "not everyone knows enough to spot one"; well back to a point that has been made a number of times, "buyer beware" and the tag should not be the sole verification of the vehicle.

I would hazard a guess that those who fight the hardest against remaking the tags have tags on their cars and therefore do not see why anyone else should have one. Again, I respect their opinions and understand their position, I just do not agree with it. Perhaps if I was dealing in 6 figure cars I might have a different opinion (although I doubt it).

Lol...wall of text not worth my time......People themselves drive themselves away....people blaming others for driving people away is just chilidish and an excuse.

The tag is part of the puzzle and having the whole puzzle will bring more $ versus part of the puzzle bringing less $....the buyers and auctions have proven such.....but you constantly dispute that even though it is a fact......you just want to prove your opinion and sometimes opinions are like hmmm and we all have one.....

Funny, how your dealer installed remark fell by the waste side.......that happens when people try to add things to their opinion that’s not correct. Just to prove a point...

 

[moparnation74]

In addition to moparnations post on part number dates, my car build date is Feb 25th, 1969. My exhaust manifolds weren't cast until Feb 27th (which was also my Daughter Jennifer's birth date!) and my engine wasn't built/stamped until Feb 28th.

Coincides with the engine build date. The 27th was scheduled but not actual. Everything, fits....

 

[dadsbee]

That is "scheduled " build date. Doesn't mean that's when it was really put together.

Understand, the point was Justin stated a car build date of Oct 28 with a Nov 1st intake. I was adding I had a 25th with 27th manifolds and 28th engine showing how Chrysler ran on the "just behind" schedule back then. Some so called "experts" would say the parts are to old for the car, when they're obviously not as they are OE.

 

[beanhead]

Understand, the point was Justin stated a car build date of Oct 28 with a Nov 1st intake. I was adding I had a 25th with 27th manifolds and 28th engine showing how Chrysler ran on the "just behind" schedule back then. Some so called "experts" would say the parts are to old for the car, when they're obviously not as they are OE.

Chrysler's standard build procedure was:

1) Schedule assembly
2)
3)wait what?
4)
5)ship assembled car to dealer
6)celebrate car shipment with a big 'ol

 

[70chall440]

Lol...wall of text not worth my time......People themselves drive themselves away....people blaming others for driving people away is just chilidish and an excuse.

The tag is part of the puzzle and having the whole puzzle will bring more $ versus part of the puzzle bringing less $....the buyers and auctions have proven such.....but you constantly dispute that even though it is a fact......you just want to prove your opinion and sometimes opinions are like hmmm and we all have one.....

Funny, how your dealer installed remark fell by the waste side.......that happens when people try to add things to their opinion that’s not correct. Just to prove a point...

Perhaps I was not clear in my previous posts; I absolutely understand that the FT is a "part of the puzzle", and I concede that cars with them more than likely command more value at auction. That said, I am wondering if you will concede that some of those same cars did not have a tag when restored but received one as a part of the restoration even without a broadcast sheet?

The dealer installed options is real and you know it, you just don't want to acknowledge it because it is a gray area that throws doubt and confusion into the OE world. I understand that in the OE world any "dealer installed option" would have to be thoroughly documented in order to be even considered, however I also know that it causes the OE world a degree of pain they would rather not have.

This entire argument revolves around divisions within the hobby. The OE guys do not want anyone to have access to a remade FT because they are concerned "fake" cars will pop up which in turn affects the value of the breed. This same group contends that they are "experts" on the cars and therefore should seemingly be able to spot a "fake", but it would appear there is some question about this ability and/or a worry that a tag could be made so well that it would be impossible to discern whether it was remade or not. This in turn then could conceptually affect the value of market place, additionally there is a worry that they may be fooled by a remade tag and become liable for verifying a car that turns out not to be correct.

The crux of my argument is that the harder you guys push back on this the more likely it is that someone will do exactly what you don't want them to do. You have made this FT deal such an emotional (almost religious) issue that it has served to make people take sides and in extreme cases attempt to thwart it (human nature, tell them they cannot do something and someone will do it). Point in case, there is another thread here where someone relatively new to the hobby asked about getting a tag (the gall...). This person was immediately jumped on something akin to "you will burn in hell if you even think about it" comments about the subject. If on the other hand the thread would have been approached in a more reasonable manner explaining why you believe a remade tag was both controversial and potentially dangerous to the hobby in some circumstances, but offered some guidance (as experts) as to how to get a tag made to fulfill his/her desire yet with and indication that it was not the original tag, it might have been better received.

To that point, this entire argument would probably almost completely go away if someone offered a service to make "replacement" tags which clearly indicated it was not original yet allowed the owner to then have a tag. Some will argue "if you are not trying to fool someone or make a fake car, why do you need a tag?", well its because so much emphasis is placed on these tags and people want their cars to be complete. Its also a result of the car show snobs who openly dismiss cars without tags. Mostly it is because some people in the hobby use the tag/no tag issue as a division point; those with tags are somehow better than those without.

Its obvious that we are approaching this issue from different prospectives, I understand and respect yours but I do not agree with it un its entirety. Unfortunately the discussion immediately digresses to emotion filled shouts of "fraud" "liar", etc. The reality is that it isn't going away and there is a reason for that other than people wanting to do something illicit. There are plenty of people who are not trying to fool anyone or inflate the value of their vehicle yet want that "piece of the puzzle". The problem is, they cannot even have the discussion without being slammed.

 

[moparnation74]

Perhaps I was not clear in my previous posts; I absolutely understand that the FT is a "part of the puzzle", and I concede that cars with them more than likely command more value at auction. That said, I am wondering if you will concede that some of those same cars did not have a tag when restored but received one as a part of the restoration even without a broadcast sheet?

The dealer installed options is real and you know it, you just don't want to acknowledge it because it is a gray area that throws doubt and confusion into the OE world. I understand that in the OE world any "dealer installed option" would have to be thoroughly documented in order to be even considered, however I also know that it causes the OE world a degree of pain they would rather not have.

This entire argument revolves around divisions within the hobby. The OE guys do not want anyone to have access to a remade FT because they are concerned "fake" cars will pop up which in turn affects the value of the breed. This same group contends that they are "experts" on the cars and therefore should seemingly be able to spot a "fake", but it would appear there is some question about this ability and/or a worry that a tag could be made so well that it would be impossible to discern whether it was remade or not. This in turn then could conceptually affect the value of market place, additionally there is a worry that they may be fooled by a remade tag and become liable for verifying a car that turns out not to be correct.

The crux of my argument is that the harder you guys push back on this the more likely it is that someone will do exactly what you don't want them to do. You have made this FT deal such an emotional (almost religious) issue that it has served to make people take sides and in extreme cases attempt to thwart it (human nature, tell them they cannot do something and someone will do it). Point in case, there is another thread here where someone relatively new to the hobby asked about getting a tag (the gall...). This person was immediately jumped on something akin to "you will burn in hell if you even think about it" comments about the subject. If on the other hand the thread would have been approached in a more reasonable manner explaining why you believe a remade tag was both controversial and potentially dangerous to the hobby in some circumstances, but offered some guidance (as experts) as to how to get a tag made to fulfill his/her desire yet with and indication that it was not the original tag, it might have been better received.

To that point, this entire argument would probably almost completely go away if someone offered a service to make "replacement" tags which clearly indicated it was not original yet allowed the owner to then have a tag. Some will argue "if you are not trying to fool someone or make a fake car, why do you need a tag?", well its because so much emphasis is placed on these tags and people want their cars to be complete. Its also a result of the car show snobs who openly dismiss cars without tags. Mostly it is because some people in the hobby use the tag/no tag issue as a division point; those with tags are somehow better than those without.

Its obvious that we are approaching this issue from different prospectives, I understand and respect yours but I do not agree with it un its entirety. Unfortunately the discussion immediately digresses to emotion filled shouts of "fraud" "liar", etc. The reality is that it isn't going away and there is a reason for that other than people wanting to do something illicit. There are plenty of people who are not trying to fool anyone or inflate the value of their vehicle yet want that "piece of the puzzle". The problem is, they cannot even have the discussion without being slammed.

Can you type a little more.....lol...just can’t scroll through all that....

I didn’t state it was a fraud or a liar or burn in etc......your beef on those statements is not with me. I have to clarify that because you quoted me on this post. The only thing legally considered to be a fraud if altered etc is that little plate on the dash but you and me know that’s the obvious...the other documents are part of the puzzle for originality and authenticity....any of those things and the vin tag listed if altered, missing etc affect value and the buyers and auctions have proven such......

The only cars I dismiss are the ones falsely presented as being complete.....all others are acceptable....

The service just should not be available it creates vacuum for more fraud....hence leading to vin tags made, titled and assigned a vin from dmv in the original format....It has already happened......

So if it is missing than it is gone, period....no exceptions in my opinion....

 

[70chall440]

I apologize for attributing that sentiment to you, I was being too holistic.

You have your opinion and I have mine. I believe we have exhausted the subject.

 

[moparnation74]

I apologize for attributing that sentiment to you, I was being too holistic.

You have your opinion and I have mine. I believe we have exhausted the subject.

I’m not even the near bit tired....if you’re done than that’s ok...

 

[Fran Blacker]

If you looked at the fender tag or build sheet of my car you could see that my 3 spoke woodgrain steering wheel didn't come with car. Also the style of brake pedal, gas pedal and rear view inside mirror didn't come on my car. Don't know if you can tell from FT/BS if those last 3 came from the factory. I have a work order from dealer that shows that they were added the day before delivery. How are those treated?

 

[70chall440]

I’m not even the near bit tired....if you’re done than that’s ok...

I am not tired, but there isn't any new ground to cover. You have made your position clear.

 

[moparnation74]

I am not tired, but there isn't any new ground to cover. You have made your position clear.

What are you the last word junkie.....so go away then if your done lol...

 

[70chall440]

What are you the last word junkie.....so go away then if your done lol...

Pot this is kettle over...

 

[PP1RT]

I am the one that thinks it is fraudulent to repop a tag. It has info on it just as the VIN tag on the dash.

I say we need to protect the hobby from the decietful scum that dont seem to have a problem screwing someone over for a few bucks.

A story i have relayed before on here involves a 69 Bee i went to look at several years ago. Supposed #s matching car. Long story short it was a Coronet 440 with a Bee tag and drivetrain. The guy had been taken by one of these scum that i am trying to protect people from.

I think remaking any document regarding a car and involving the VIN/SO # should be illegal.

Not yelling or screaming.

 

[Kern Dog]

Hey Kern Dog, you surviving the smoke?

Thanks for asking. Yes, it has hardly affected us where I am. recent rain has cleared it out to the point where I notice nothing more than people burning firewood.

 

[Fran Blacker]

Thanks for asking. Yes, it has hardly affected us where I am. recent rain has cleared it out to the point where I notice nothing more than people burning firewood.

Burning firewood didn't they make that illegal.