Pick your restorer carefully, or are show cars not meant to be operated?

[Dragon Slayer]

It is amazing to me how some restorer will build a car, but I guess to the casual owner they might never know.

Working on a 69 Hemi, and going through the engine compartment to replace parts/fasteners with correct items, and rebuild the fuel system so it can be a reliable starting and running car.

Higher end hemi car, that sat for years in a collection. Pretty original at the engine. So I get to the intake manifold and the fasteners are not completely correct. So I do some heavy research, and this area is really vague with little data on the internet.

So what do I find? Well it should have 6 studs of varying length, strategically placed. Course thread into head, and fine thread for the hemi specific captured washer nut. It had 5, but wait, 2 are carburetor aircleaner studs course on both ends. Most bolts are loose, and one is so short it comes out by hand. It never even engaged threads, just used to plug the hole. Half the bolts were correct but the other half were not. The missing stud hole was partially striped which is why no stud, and bolt instead.

So off to the local hemi builder and mopar mechanic (over 50years). Lucky to have someone like this in our club and with the knowledge and resources to help. Into his hemi cabinet to get the correct length studs and some original bolts.

With just some effort and a 1/4" course die I extend the thread length on 2 studs so that I can properly install them in their proper location, put bolts in proper location and torque it down correctly.

So if they take those kinds of short cuts, what is inside the block. What are the piston/rod combination, is it really even a 426 or is is some other destroked combination.

How about all the reproduction electrical stuff used. Many items do not work reliably. Looks fantastic, but doesn't work right? So I find myself taking items in high #2 or #1 condition off the car, and installing #2-#3 condition original parts so it is original and actually works.

I have a 70 RR that while not numbers matching, nor original to the broadcast sheet, is about 97% all original Mopar down to date codes. It just had a motor replaced and upgrade with dana, disc brakes, buckets, tach. But everything used came from other 70 RR that had those options 25 years ago when it was restored by the 2nd or 3rd owner who had it for about 37 years before he sold it to me. Immaculate body work, all most all original to the car sheet metal, and everything functions as it should. Frankly everytime I need a common part for the 69, the 70 has the original.

To me this is just an interesting commentary on this hobby (new to me) despite being a car guy. Parts cost for reproduction not really accurate or well built, let along what people want for original parts, the cost of restorations, and the greed that seems to drive some people in this hobby even at the highest level is sad. I think that is why you do not see many new younger folks getting involved (despite the demographic issues) and why many more would just choose the resto mod route.

For new guys you just really need to be careful. Frankly, if folks demanded more data about cars being sold on the internet and at auctions, I think half of the high end stuff would not sell. The whole auction scene would need to be revamped. Then again, if your just buying papers and pushing it into you collection everything just might be A OK anyway

Just a little rant, and what seems like a sad commentary on the hobby since you do not really see the magazines address this issue and help hold folks accountable. Too much in advertizing money would be lost I guess.

 

[mmissile]

That's why I like racecars..........
I don't understand the fascination with making cars just like a bunch of alcoholics, drug-addicts, and high-school drop-outs from 50 years ago. They were built like crap, parts from the cheapest vendors, and the workers were only there for the paycheck and bennies.

But that's why the hobby is still fun....different strokes.

 

[HawkRod]

Dragon,

I agree completely. And like mmissile, I want my cars to work! Except for me I am not a race car guy; I like to drive and cruise. So much so that when I finished the restoration of my 1970 I drove it across the entire country!

I want everything to work like it should. And quite frankly, in my opinion, this is what separates the real builders. There is an art to getting a car truly "sorted", and I think that is really cool when they are...

Hawk

 

[BeatersRus]

you reminded me of one of my pet peeves,the magazines.
while yes,they created more exposure for our cars,
they also drove the pricing up and created the artificial market.

for Years,my main issue < get it? > with the mags is the way they present the articles.
Esp the barnfinds and other cars that are found bought whatever.
they would Never post prices,to reflect the Real market.
instead,it was always this cars worth a fortune..this cars rare..
but never hey he scored it for 500 bucks,or 2 grand whatever.
( and their cheap budget builds Always ended up way over what a cheap budget build really would.)

and some of their stories were absolute bs.
billybob got this superbee,and rebuilt it in a year.
then you read how billybob had bought the car 15 Years Ago!! and finally got it going.
almost like a slight of hand with these mag guys just to come up with a story to print.

so,while they did bring attention to our cars all these years,i feel they didnt do it right.
jmo.

 

[flypaper]

Most people are hacks on both sides
The ones working on it won't take the time,effort,and research
or they do not have the skills to do it right.
And the ones footing the bill wouldn't want to pay what it would really cost or takes!
As to do it right, time should not be a concern.at all
and the price of a part should not matter..
would you be willing to fill in a number on the check at the end
not knowing when the meter will stop running??
I don't think so!
so you have the end result
something far from perfect and It doesn't work right..
the whole deal is a compromise..
we have someone not willing to pay the full amount it would take
or someone not capable of doing the work correctly.
or a combination of both..

 

[gkent]

I hate restored cars. They have no visible "personal" touch and exhibit no creativity. I go to Carlisle, the Nats, etc and walk the rows looking for the cars with some mods - even if its only "day 2" type stuff.

 

[flypaper]

I hate restored cars. They have no visible "personal" touch and exhibit no creativity. I go to Carlisle, the Nats, etc and walk the rows looking for the cars with some mods - even if its only "day 2" type stuff.

i happen to love restored cars
because i know how much it takes to do a honest restoration right.
any billybobjoe can slap together a car that you like, yawn..
i guess that is what makes the hobby
different strokes

 

[HawkRod]

I like them all, be they stock restorations, day 2, touring type cars, etc. What interests me is when people do them right and make them work well.

 

[TxDon]

This is a very common problem that I first noticed when I was working with prewar cars. It comes down to the difference between megadollar showcar trailer queens and real driveable cars. Most of the show only cars are kept in a static museum collection and only driven into and out of the trailer onto a show field. Their cosmetics are fabulous but often the mechanical stuff is not truly restored but just polished up.

 

[Bb70charger500]

This is a difficult one! I like org cars if there rare and done right ! If it's a plan Jane 318 car or something I rather see it done up differently no harm no foul if it's not rare ! Custom cars are a part of our hobby that's what started the hobby! The cars were cool off the showroom but we can make them cooler just like these guys are doing to the new cars now ! But if it's a rare 1 of 1 hemi 4 speed ...... it needs to be left alone and done correctly ! Race cars are cool ,I'm a resto mod guy mostly because I can't afford a hemi...... car so I take the ones no one wants and make them cool I do such a good job I usually can't finish the car someone has to have it! My rallye I'm building is on the edge but since it wasnt a true 4 speed car I decided it was OK to modify it !

 

[flypaper]

you are 110% correct in your first statement.
choose your restorer (or poison) very carefully

this will be a long story
but it told me what someone would find if they looked to farm out the work to get a car done.


a neighbor was telling one of his friends he knew about what me and my brother are doing
so this comes over to check out my rusty junk
this guy had owned a few mopars in the past and sold them all
he is joe pro body guy blah,blah works at some local shop
one of his cars he sold went to barret j, (his lame claim to fame i guess lol)
he goes on and on,he gets 100 an hr on the side
does mostly collision work but he can fix and paint your old car for 15k.
(that was his rap to me)
anyway he has a boner over a 70 grabber runner project i got
wants to buy it (i can tell by now,this tweaker ain't got 2 nickles to rub together! lol)
any way he goes on about this challenger vert that went to barret j
he even had a few pics of the car he showed me
he said it was rust free except the lower quarters
which he said they glued patches in place,mudded over it and it looked mint
and the car rolled across the block
ok now this guy is going on and on and on
and on and on.
says he can paint the 70 runner he is drooling over that i have for 15k
how he could do this,he could do that..
i just let him go..lol

so after he caught his breath
i bring him over to the other garage
and wing open the door and
i showed him the car we are working on
and told him it had the frame rails replaced front to back and much more.
(the car is getting primed in a week or 2)
joe pro body guy jaw be on the ground now
he climbed over it front to back
then asks
is this a a12?
yes told him it was
without peeping another word he looked it over again
front to back
him:is that real lead?
me:yes it is
him: that looks unbelievable and smooth,how did you do that?
nobody does that!
me:it took me a lot of learning,i'm getting better at it

he then admitted flat out to me he couldn't do something like that
then he says
if you need a hand blocking something out,i'm really good at that.
i'm now thinking to myself
that about is all he is good for,if anything at all ! LMAO

he wasn't joe pro anything by the time he left my shop
and i think his gf who was with him even knew it.
he was a HACK! LMAO
but
i have no doubt
he could probably paint you a really nice newer car
or something that didn't need much work
collision repair
but to work on something old?
metal replacement?
ahhh
run forest run...


this is the type of clown i would find if i didn't do this all myself.
to hear the barret j rap
see the pics
would of almost sold me..
it was a good sales rap
by the time he left
the guy knew he wasn't painting anything for me
after almost begging me to do it for over 20 minutes

so i feel for anyone who has to endure thru the pain of it.
i'm sure there is a lot more of that out there where he came from.

 

[Dennis H]

Thread title: Both.

I appreciate looking at restored and correct cars for reference. The guys with the wallets take care of that. No way I would spend my time loading and unloading trailers. Hauling cars all over the country, not my cup of tea. They were purpose built and meant to be driven. That, and used up as the kids don't care. They will just be sold off. There are always exceptions.

 

[1967coronet]

My 2 cents is all these {correct} restored muscle cars are way way over restored.
why guys worry about this bolt and that washer and then blow 4 coats of clear on the body is kinda funny. I watched my step brother spend 6yrs and a pile of cash restoring a 70 V code E body N96 car and in the end whats he do ? paint stick gaps & 3 coats of base and 4 coats of 4000 wet sanded and buffed. beautiful no doubt about it. But correct ?
I seen, owned & drove some of these cars when they were late model used originals. They were beat the crap out of it Styrofoam cooler in the back seat, paint finish like Velcro and stick a finger in near any gap haul *** chevy eaters. Nothing more.

 

[Speedbird]

This. ^^^^^^^^^^
From my experience and reading others what is "correct" and what the car actually left the assembly line with are two different things.
Don't sweat the small stuff.
Post number 4.
http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/radiator-support-oddity.56462/

"If it's on a trailer it's stolen."
Wait, it could be Road Kill.
But I build them for reliability.
I hate walking.

 

[steve from staten island]

This. ^^^^^^^^^^
From my experience and reading others what is "correct" and what the car actually left the assembly line with are two different things.
Truer words were never spoken.... In 1971 i bought a 1969 GTO from the original owner. A guy from work who bought it brand new when he got home from the service. I knew the guy well and i knew that the car was always in a garage never saw rain or snow and nobody ever sat in the back seat. The car had 10,600 miles on it and was literally like the day it was driven off the showroom floor. Point is under the hood and under the car sans factory markings it looked nothing like restored show cars do today. I might not remember much but this i do.

 

[polywideblock]

you would be surprised how many cars I've looked at over the years that had inoperable wipers /washers , blinkers /lights /horn / speedo /gauges . it got to the point where that was the first thing I asked , it was as if you guys over there never use any of the above when out driving / cruising

 

[drobertson]

IMO, for these ere muscle cars, a big block or hemi car should be restored to factory, with the exception of day 2 mods and what not.

However, slant six cars and 318-mobiles make great platforms for full out custom builds. Because more of them were built, and they're a lot cheaper than a real R/T car or GTX to hack up and modify to hell.

 

[Richard Cranium]

I hate restored cars. They have no visible "personal" touch and exhibit no creativity.

Really?


http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/mopar...e-for-my-father-my-69-gtx-restoration.127388/

 

[Bruzilla]

I do have to chuckle when I read these botched restoration threads as I am always reminded of when our parents would drag us out to dealerships in the 60s and 70s. WE HATED IT!!! Nowadays, people hate going to the dealership because getting all the finance crap together takes forever. Back then, few cars were ever financed and what took forever was just getting the car to pass muster.

We would be stuck in a waiting room for hours while all the crap our Dad found wrong on our new car was fixed, and then inevitably we would get told we would have to come back the next day or the day after to pick up the car, and then it was a 50/50 shot if it would be ready then... which meant more hours in that damn waiting room.

The truth is our cars were seriously **** boxes when they left the factory, and thousands of Mopar techs at dealerships had to rush and get creative to get the cars acceptable by their new owners. So this idea that there is a "standard" of any kind for our cars is pretty laughable to me. The truth is what is "right" on our cars is usually whatever a dealer tech had to do to get a customer to sign off on the purchase order, and the best a fanatical owner can do is make their car just like one or two other cars because that's about as standard as things get.

 

[Mike67]

Both have thier merit, the restored are nice to look at, Im not one to point out "thats the wrong year bolt..." type...my knowledge is not that comprehensive in that regard but do enjoy looking at them.My hats off to those that do know all of the factory bolts brackets, hoses & mounts...its way beyond me!
Im more into restomods, prostreet/touring types or restored vintage race cars. They do model some different ingenuity and personal flair not seen on factory cars.
Just think if everyone had the same color/shape house what a boring world it would be.