Trying to find the electrical draw that drains the battery...

[RJRENTON]

When idling, the voltmeter shows this:
View attachment 964188

The hand held meter:

View attachment 964189

With the ignition on but not running:
View attachment 964190

Out of curiosity if I may ask....where did you get the instruments shown in your pixes....they are outstanding. My GTX still has the original instruments with the exception of the Tic-Toc-Tach which is the new style with tge RTE board. I have a complete instrument panel and would substitute the OEM stuff for the electronic devices you have.....excellent appearance and i trust function. BTW...are the existing sensors in use?
BOB RENTON

 

[bearman]

Dumb question and if it has been covered please excuse. Kd you said the output from alt is 14.5 but yet you have to charge the battery up to 12.6 for easy cranking. My question is why do you have to recharge to get the battery back up. Even with a starter dragging once it is running the battery should come back to normal. I do agree it sounds like a starter issue but I believe you have more going on. Have you ever started the car and while it is running pulled the positive cable off. The engine should continue to run if it dies you also need to look at a bad diode pac in alt or the field whining is shorting out. Which will drain battery down over night or a couple days. Just a thought

 

[Kern Dog]

Out of curiosity if I may ask....where did you get the instruments shown in your pixes....they are outstanding. My GTX still has the original instruments with the exception of the Tic-Toc-Tach which is the new style with tge RTE board. I have a complete instrument panel and would substitute the OEM stuff for the electronic devices you have.....excellent appearance and i trust function. BTW...are the existing sensors in use?
BOB RENTON

The gauges are from Dakota Digital. They emply a new oil pressure switch, temperature switch, a speed sensor in place of the speedometer cable and a tachometer wire. The gas gauge is calibrated to almost any type of sending unit. The speedometer can be reprogrammed to account for any tire size or axle ratio. There is a 0-60 timer, a low fuel warning, clock and trip odometer.

 

[Kern Dog]

Dumb question and if it has been covered please excuse. Kd you said the output from alt is 14.5 but yet you have to charge the battery up to 12.6 for easy cranking. My question is why do you have to recharge to get the battery back up. Even with a starter dragging once it is running the battery should come back to normal. I do agree it sounds like a starter issue but I believe you have more going on. Have you ever started the car and while it is running pulled the positive cable off. The engine should continue to run if it dies you also need to look at a bad diode pac in alt or the field whining is shorting out. Which will drain battery down over night or a couple days. Just a thought

There are a few things going on.
First, I think that there is a slow discharge going on but I can't seem to find anything drawing power when I test for it.
Secondly, the starter seems to behave strangely. When the engine is cold, it spins slower than I think that it should. A warm up results in rapid spinning if the voltage is right. The alternator is charging but I haven't taken the car out for a drive in a couple of weeks. I suspect that it takes more than a few minutes of idling to recharge the battery so that is why I have been using the small trickle type charger.

 

[hammond472]

KD It suspiciously sounds like a bad battery. Load test! I just swapped out my kids and the brand new replacement was bad. Battery number three did the trick. When they are sulfated they hold a surface charge but drop voltage quick. If it's bad trying to top it off with a charger just masks the real issue. If voltage drops fast at full charge under load it's done. If you don't catch it you can spend countless hours looking in the wrong direction. Your alternator is probably just replacing the surface charge once it runs hence the easier to crank when warm.

 

[kiwigtx]

KD It suspiciously sounds like a bad battery. Load test! I just swapped out my kids and the brand new replacement was bad. Battery number three did the trick. When they are sulfated they hold a surface charge but drop voltage quick. If it's bad trying to top it off with a charger just masks the real issue. If voltage drops fast at full charge under load it's done. If you don't catch it you can spend countless hours looking in the wrong direction. Your alternator is probably just replacing the surface charge once it runs hence the easier to crank when warm.

I suggested that a few pages back.

Now that I have everyone thinking about voltage drop and the reason for it....if you have an opportunity @Kern Dog .....take the battery along to an Auto Electrician and get them to do a "Load Test" on it....to rule out the possibility of a dead or dying cell.
The test takes less than 30 seconds, and hopefully you won't be charged for that (see what I did there)

....................................

Also, tell us what the CCA of the battery is.....Cold Cranking Amp capacity.

 

[Kern Dog]

The battery was from the local NAPA store, about $150 with the discount. I'll have to look at the tag to see the rating. It isn't very old.
I called them...They don't have the equipment to perform a load test. Same symptoms occur with another battery though.
My '67 Dart out back sits for weeks or months. I checked the voltage today. 12.4 and it cranked right up. Mini starter, low compression 360. My '75 Power Wagon has a 8.8 CR 440 and sits for weeks. It starts easily too.
I'll have to check around to see if anyone local can do a load test. I am tempted to just swap out the starter for this new one. Maybe I can fab up some sort of heat shield. The header tubes are not exactly close but they are near the starter.

 

[hammond472]

KD I used a blanket and straps for my starter heat shield. It's inexpensive, works excellent and is easy to install. For good measure I also heat sleeve the speedometer cable, positive battery cable and use silicone plug wires with boots.

I think you can load test your battery without a machine. How it works is that with a fully Charged battery (overnight charge with battery disconnected from vehicle on 2 amp charge) you put a load of half of your batteries cold cranking amps on it for15 seconds and measure the amperes produced by the battery. If you pull off your coil wire you could crank your starter motor and use it as the load....but on the down side 15 seconds is a long time to be cranking the starter.

 

[RJRENTON]

The gauges are from Dakota Digital. They emply a new oil pressure switch, temperature switch, a speed sensor in place of the speedometer cable and a tachometer wire. The gas gauge is calibrated to almost any type of sending unit. The speedometer can be reprogrammed to account for any tire size or axle ratio. There is a 0-60 timer, a low fuel warning, clock and trip odometer.

THANK YOU FOR THE INFORMATION....I'll ring them see what they have in stock misc pieces snd psrts needed.
BOB RENTON

 

[RJRENTON]

Dumb question and if it has been covered please excuse. Kd you said the output from alt is 14.5 but yet you have to charge the battery up to 12.6 for easy cranking. My question is why do you have to recharge to get the battery back up. Even with a starter dragging once it is running the battery should come back to normal. I do agree it sounds like a starter issue but I believe you have more going on. Have you ever started the car and while it is running pulled the positive cable off. The engine should continue to run if it dies you also need to look at a bad diode pac in alt or the field whining is shorting out. Which will drain battery down over night or a couple days. Just a thought

Bear...
The alternators field winding or ROTOR only receives power when the ignition is on, so it cannot discharge the battery UNLESS on a one wire system similar to a GM's system where the field voltage is developed by the diode trio, not the main rectifier bridge circuit. As I mentioned previously IF a diode in the main bridge rectifier circuit shorts, it will discharge the battery thru the internal stator windings, usually over nite. This will also result in low capacity and a lower output voltage.
BOB RENTON

 

[Fran Blacker]

If a different battery doesn't work I'd remove that ford solenoid and go back to the standard relay. Was reading in Hot Rod, they had a fix your problems article. They'd sent a car to a shop to fix problems that owners or there mechanic couldn't fix. One article had several problems they found the add on solenoid was part of the cars problem. Doesn't look like a big deal to bypass it. Good luck.

 

[Kern Dog]

I don't know how a "standard" relay would work. This solenoid has two large posts. Those are essential. The only other way that I could do it would be to eliminate the solenoid connection and run the large 1/0 cable directly to the battery. Doing so would make the cable LIVE all the time. If the cable ever frayed enough to touch metal or if a header tube ever melted the insulation, it could be catastrophic.
The factory starter relay is still in use on the firewall.

 

[RJRENTON]

I don't know how a "standard" relay would work. This solenoid has two large posts. Those are essential. The only other way that I could do it would be to eliminate the solenoid connection and run the large 1/0 cable directly to the battery. Doing so would make the cable LIVE all the time. If the cable ever frayed enough to touch metal or if a header tube ever melted the insulation, it could be catastrophic.
The factory starter relay is still in use on the firewall.

An additional curiosity question....I believe you mentioned that you are running a 1/0 AWG copper cable from the trunk mounted battery to a Ford solenoid in engine compartment and a 1/0 cable ftom the Ford solenoid to the starter. AND in addition you are running a 1/0 cable from the battery's negative terminal to the frame. HOW does the battery's negative get from the frame to the engine and where is this connection on the engine block? This wire must be 1/0 as well and must be connected to, ideally, one of the starter's mounting bolts. Ideally, if this connection were run with a seperate 1/0 cable from the battery's negative terminal to the engine block directly, would be the ideal situation, eliminating any potential for voltage drop issues. Just an additional thought....
BOB RENTON

 

[Derwud]

THANK YOU FOR THE INFORMATION....I'll ring them see what they have in stock misc pieces snd psrts needed.
BOB RENTON

Here is my Set-up

 

[Sixpactogo]

The battery was from the local NAPA store, about $150 with the discount. I'll have to look at the tag to see the rating. It isn't very old.
I called them...They don't have the equipment to perform a load test. Same symptoms occur with another battery though.
My '67 Dart out back sits for weeks or months. I checked the voltage today. 12.4 and it cranked right up. Mini starter, low compression 360. My '75 Power Wagon has a 8.8 CR 440 and sits for weeks. It starts easily too.
I'll have to check around to see if anyone local can do a load test. I am tempted to just swap out the starter for this new one. Maybe I can fab up some sort of heat shield. The header tubes are not exactly close but they are near the starter.

How bout this.........Swap the battery with the one in your Dart or Power Wagon for a week or so. See if you have the same problem. That should tell you if your battery is junk.

 

[khryslerkid]

No poll taking yet but I'm going with the starter. Sounds like something is tight when it's cold and it loosens up when it's up to operating temps. That's what's standing out in what I've read on here. Yes, normally it's the opposite when a starter acts up.

I would think that with any trunk mounted battery set-up there's going to be quite a bit more amperage draw by the starter with having that long of a cable. Having the battery closer, in the engine compartment, things seem normal. Locating the battery in the trunk will bring out the worst in an otherwise, what you would think, good starter.

As BOB would say...Just my opinion of course.

 

[Kern Dog]

The ground cables are all smaller than the starter cable. It has been that way since I made this change 7 years ago.
There is a standard size (#4 I believe?) ground cable from the left cylinder head to the core support. There is a ground from the right head all the way back to the battery and one from the right rear frame rail to the battery. All of this worked fine for years.

 

[Sixpactogo]

The reason I question the battery (Like others on this thread) is they can do goofy things when one cell is dead. I remember back in the 60's I had a 57 Buick that could sit for weeks at a time and start right up. I could drive it for 10 minutes and then it would turn over real slow or act as if the battery was dead. I thought I had starter problems because if I let it sit for half an hour it would start. What the problem was, I was told was the 1st plate off of the Positive post was shorted and it was drawing power from that 1st plate but would not accept a charge from the generator until I shut it off. The battery acted dead but when sitting, it would equalize with the other 5 plates. I had never heard of that before so couldn't understand how it could hold a charge over time but not when running. A load test would tell if the battery cells were all good but so would swapping it out. Good luck getting it figured out. I know this doesn't sound exactly like the issue you are experiencing but worth a try since you can't find a drain otherwise.

 

[bearman]

Bear...
The alternators field winding or ROTOR only receives power when the ignition is on, so it cannot discharge the battery UNLESS on a one wire system similar to a GM's system where the field voltage is developed by the diode trio, not the main rectifier bridge circuit. As I mentioned previously IF a diode in the main bridge rectifier circuit shorts, it will discharge the battery thru the internal stator windings, usually over nite. This will also result in low capacity and a lower output voltage.
BOB RENTON

You are correct with your statement. The trouble if I am reading this correctly kd has 14plus out put but yet battery must be charged up just to get to 12.6 at this point the starter cranks over easy and the engine runs. So I have to say the alt is not keeping up with the system. I guess kd could full field the alt it should jump up to 18 volts. I also wonder about the pulley system if kd like others runs standard pulleys and Cruz around at 15 mph with a/c etc on. Maybe a smaller pulley on the alt or water pump is needed to force the alt to push up the input and output. Also if after engine is running if you pull the positive cable off the battery and the engine dies then the alt is acting like a generator and only keeping a surface charge. Just a thought.bear
Bob happy father's day

 

[Kern Dog]

The pulley arrangement is stock for a 1970 440 with A/C. I rarely aim for factory correctness but since I added A/C, I didn't want to risk any cooling system problems.
It started slow today as usual. I drove less than 2 minutes and shut it down. 10 minutes later it restarted quickly, almost like any new car. A 10 minute drive to get gas and the restart was like a cold start. Huh ? Slow cranking but it did get going. Another 10 minutes down the road to the moving and storage place. I wanted to weigh the car to see wwhat difference it made changing over to the Classic Auto Air system.
I went to start it to pull on the scale and it dragged slower than a cold start. It felt like the battery was low.
The entire time that I was driving, the voltmeter read between 13-15 volts. I let the car sit about 5 minutes and tried again. It cranked a little faster then roared to life.
Back at home, I shut it down and tested the battery with the multi-meter. 12.73 volts, as good as any time that I have charged it with the trickle charger. I hit the key and again, slow cranking but it did start.
Screw it...I am changing this starter tomorrow. It may be fine with a smaller engine with a battery up front so I won't just trash it.
I did read what Sixpactogo wrote:

"The reason I question the battery (Like others on this thread) is they can do goofy things when one cell is dead. I remember back in the 60's I had a 57 Buick that could sit for weeks at a time and start right up. I could drive it for 10 minutes and then it would turn over real slow or act as if the battery was dead. I thought I had starter problems because if I let it sit for half an hour it would start. What the problem was, I was told was the 1st plate off of the Positive post was shorted and it was drawing power from that 1st plate but would not accept a charge from the generator until I shut it off. The battery acted dead but when sitting, it would equalize with the other 5 plates. I had never heard of that before so couldn't understand how it could hold a charge over time but not when running. A load test would tell if the battery cells were all good but so would swapping it out. Good luck getting it figured out. I know this doesn't sound exactly like the issue you are experiencing but worth a try since you can't find a drain otherwise."

The reason that I don't blame this battery is that the hard start issues also occurred with 2 other batteries. I pulled out an Optima Red Top last year for this same reason. I saved that battery so it will be used in my Jigsaw project car. Another NAPA battery, a conventional lead-acid type gave the exact same performance as this AGM.
Thanks for the suggestions though. I appreciate the input. I hope to have some good news to report tomorrow afternoon.