Well, I've had enough of this 440 Mystery Motor

[moparedtn]

Appreciate everyone checking in and offering suggestions as always.
Y'all are pretty darn awesome - and of course, I can't answer any of your questions right now, either because I'm ignernt or because the engine hasn't been torn down far enough - yet.

I DO have something for y'all to chew on, however:
I finally went thru the motions of using the pushrod checker.
Ok, ok, hold down your sarcastic golf clapping....

Here's what I think I've figured out so far:
-Stock pushrod length is supposed to be 9.315 (at least according to Comp Cams)

-The "new" pushrods I ordered and installed with the heads last fall are 9.295 long

-The measured length using the checker (taking out all lash but not compressing lifters) is right at 9.175 - so if I add the 0.020 to 0.040 for lifter pre-load that Miller suggests, that puts the "needed" length at 9.195-9.215, right?

Does this make sense and if so, is that enough of a difference to cause things to go wonky?

 

[moparedtn]

To entertain your question, the actual measurement is taken from the flat spot (red arrow) to the gasket surface. (452 head)
View attachment 388937
A rough measurement can be taken at the bolt surface to the gasket surface. It will measure 1" on a uncut head. (452 head)
View attachment 388938

Oh, almost forgot - I did a rudimentary measurement here from bottom of head to the flat where the bolt is on the drivers' side head and found it came up just a tad shy of 1", but not by a whole lot.

 

[oldbee]

Personally I would think the lifters could take up the slack in the valvetrain.. I'm with you and going "wonky"!!! Still think we'll all go nuts when the real problem is found. Jeez, I've went to bed the last couple nights thinking about your problem, probably the same as you. Over&over throwing out problems,fixes,solutions.!!!

 

[khryslerkid]

The measured length using the checker (taking out all lash but not compressing lifters) is right at 9.175

So minus this from the 9.295 that you are useing, your preload is @ .120 right now

Is it too much? I wouldn't want them that deep.
Is it causing your problem? One post on here stated that .100 wasn't uncommon for a factory engine. But that is useing a stock cam also.

Let's see what the experts say...

 

[khryslerkid]

I was doing a little research, reading some other threads (not on here) about how much travel does the piston in a lifter actually have before bottoming out. (Mopar BB engines).

What I found was .100 of travel. Some have been known to have .120

I was going to check a used one but I must have thrown the ones that I had away.

So I would say that your pushrod lenth has them almost bottomed out if not bottomed out. As the engine warms up that might even grow into a situation of holding the valves open and maybe even creating contact between the valve spring retainer and the top of the guide.

I'm useing .020 preload but haven't fired it up yet. My researching came up with .020 being the desired measurement on a higher lift cam. You find a little more preload on a stock cam application with non adjustable rockers. I have adjustable rockers, so if .020 would happen to be noisy, I can give them a bit more.
.020 to .040 is the norm from what I've researched for stamped, non adjustable rockers. .060 maximum.

 

[moparedtn]

I was doing a little research, reading some other threads (not on here) about how much travel does the piston in a lifter actually have before bottoming out. (Mopar BB engines).

What I found was .100 of travel. Some have been known to have .120

I was going to check a used one but I must have thrown the ones that I had away.

So I would say that your pushrod lenth has them almost bottomed out if not bottomed out. As the engine warms up that might even grow into a situation of holding the valves open and maybe even creating contact between the valve spring retainer and the top of the guide.

I'm useing .020 preload but haven't fired it up yet. My researching came up with .020 being the desired measurement on a higher lift cam. You find a little more preload on a stock cam application with non adjustable rockers. I have adjustable rockers, so if .020 would happen to be noisy, I can give them a bit more.
.020 to .040 is the norm from what I've researched for stamped, non adjustable rockers. .060 maximum.

Wow, only 0.100 total travel in lifters?
Why would I think it's more than that? Holy cow.

 

[khryslerkid]

Wow, only 0.100 total travel in lifters?
Why would I think it's more than that? Holy cow.

I wish I had a lifter to verify that for myself but that's what I found reading up on them.

 

[moparedtn]

I wish I had a lifter to verify that for myself but that's what I found reading up on them.

Well I reckon if that's the case....I GOTS A PROBLEM!

 

[khryslerkid]

Well I reckon if that's the case....I GOTS A PROBLEM!

If it was me, I would check a couple more lifter/rocker measurements with the checking rod to get an average. (Exhaust and intake) Make sure the lifter is dead on the base circle of the lobe.
Then order the correct size. Adding maybe .030- .040 to the actual measurement. .020 might be noisy and you can't tighten that up with your stamped rockers.

You still need to check you head to manifold gap. Clean up both surfaces real good and set that big hunk of iron back on there without any gasket.
Check the gap with a good light, maybe even try getting a feeler guage in there from underneath the intake. That head may not have that much taken off of it. Also check your bolt hole alignment when it's sitting on there. You might just pull this thing off with not spending a lot of money and time. I understand your situation.

 

[moparedtn]

If it was me, I would check a couple more lifter/rocker measurements with the checking rod to get an average. (Exhaust and intake) Make sure the lifter is dead on the base circle of the lobe.
Then order the correct size. Adding maybe .030- .040 to the actual measurement. .020 might be noisy and you can't tighten that up with your stamped rockers.

You still need to check you head to manifold gap. Clean up both surfaces real good and set that big hunk of iron back on there without any gasket.
Check the gap with a good light, maybe even try getting a feeler guage in there from underneath the intake. That head may not have that much taken off of it. Also check your bolt hole alignment when it's sitting on there. You might just pull this thing off with not spending a lot of money and time. I understand your situation.

Although I have done several already, I do want to check some more on the opposite bank diagonally from where I was, yep.

Again, I did set the intake bare on the heads back when I put these heads on. I described that ordeal pretty thoroughly more than once; bolts barely were coerced into position with no gasket at all and I could feel the angle wasn't optimal even then.
This intake will not be installed on this engine again.
Unfortunately, even though I've asked for advice on an aftermarket replacement, nobody has offered any help on that.

 

[khryslerkid]

I cant help you on these later manifolds. I'm useing a factory, cast iron, two four barrel. There is a few threads on them, or you can start one and include your engine specs and carb that you are useing.

On the pushrod rods, I had Smith Brothers make my set. They were $180 with shipping. Quality product! If I could have found a set to fit my measurements I might have gone with Summit or 440 Source.

 

[coloradodave]

Here you go. Great street intake: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-7193/overview/make/dodge

 

[Cornpatch MO]

I cant help you on these later manifolds. I'm useing a factory, cast iron, two four barrel. There is a few threads on them, or you can start one and include your engine specs and carb that you are useing.

On the pushrod rods, I had Smith Brothers make my set. They were $180 with shipping. Quality product! If I could have found a set to fit my measurements I might have gone with Summit or 440 Source.

You already spent $180 on push rods , why didn't you just go with adjustable rockers? Just FMI . ........................................MO

 

[dvw]

Why not reinstall valve train with shims under the rocker shafts and measure the actual pre-load with the exiting pushrods? No need to replace the intake. Get it cut if it doesn't fit.
Doug

 

[moparedtn]

Here you go. Great street intake: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-7193/overview/make/dodge

Thanks, Dave, but I'm reading reviews that say it won't work with a stock hood??
I've been asking repeatedly on here in the Performer (not RPM) is shorter to help with that?

 

[moparedtn]

Why not reinstall valve train with shims under the rocker shafts and measure the actual pre-load with the exiting pushrods? No need to replace the intake. Get it cut if it doesn't fit.
Doug

On the rocker shaft shims, I have considered those.
Seems to me that would mess with the rocker to valve tip geometry, though?
If I assume I have totally stock rocker/shaft assemblies sitting on stock heads that are actuating stock valves, it just makes sense to me not to screw with Ma Mopars' engineering, eh?
I'll do some more studying on it, though. It would save me some money for sure.

On cutting the intake, a fella would have to know what to tell the machine shop to cut it to, I suppose (assuming I can find one in Podunk, TN capable of doing the work to begin with).
After all, we're talking about angles here. I'm comfortable with the math of it all, but one has to know the numbers to plug into the geometry to begin with, eh?
Without my knowing for sure if the block has been decked at all or how much the heads have been decked, etc. it would be a crap shoot of cut/trial fit/cut again/oops, too much for me probably.
The other part of the equation with the intake is that the damn thing is heavy and offers no performance gain over an aluminum aftermarket one to compensate.
My surgically altered physique is quite tired of leaning over the radiator and jerking the damn thing off, to be honest.

 

[dvw]

A leson on rocker geometry. At 1/2 valve lift the rocker C/L should be 90 degrees to the valve stem. With that being said if you go from say stock .450" lift to .600" lift the correct pivot location for .450" will be .075" lower. How many builds machine the shaft stands? Very few. Do they still work? Yes. My point is a.030"-.060" shim means very little in the scheme of things. Personally my .800" lift roller cam has the rocker stands raised .060" so it could use existing push rods. The sweep across the valve increased by .012". Been making close to 900hp @7100 for 400+ passes. I have street motors shimmed as well. Both are run to 7000rpm.
Doug

 

[miller]

I DO have something for y'all to chew on, however:
I finally went thru the motions of using the pushrod checker.
Ok, ok, hold down your sarcastic golf clapping....

Are we having fun, yet??? Good deal on checking with a push rod length checker...good info!
But, now a question. You've made a basic check on the length. Just asking, okay! Did you have the head gaskets in place? Are they the thickness your going to use? Were the heads torqued down? All those things must be in place, or checking push rod length is a waste of time.
Still would like to know if all your tappets work freely, meaning the 'cup' movement.

On your push rod length measurement...added .030 to your numbers...came up with 9.205". That's what I would use.

Might of found your problem...or part of it.

 

[moparedtn]

Are we having fun, yet??? Good deal on checking with a push rod length checker...good info!
But, now a question. You've made a basic check on the length. Just asking, okay! Did you have the head gaskets in place? Are they the thickness your going to use? Were the heads torqued down? All those things must be in place, or checking push rod length is a waste of time.
Still would like to know if all your tappets work freely, meaning the 'cup' movement.

On your push rod length measurement...added .030 to your numbers...came up with 9.205". That's what I would use.

Might of found your problem...or part of it.

Well yeah man, the engine is assembled. This whole thing started when it started misbehaving when I drove it last, remember?

Gee, I hope the lifters are working. They're new, too! Comp Cams, same as the cam. Installed together new.
Here's which ones. The lifters:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-822-16

The cam:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-21-306-4
It's one of their Magnum series, 270 duration/470 lift.
Pretty tame, really.

I used good old FelPro Permatorque blue head gaskets:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-8519pt1

Does anyone know what the total piston travel is on these lifters (or stock ones, for that matter)? What is their safe operational "zone"?

 

[moparedtn]

A leson on rocker geometry. At 1/2 valve lift the rocker C/L should be 90 degrees to the valve stem. With that being said if you go from say stock .450" lift to .600" lift the correct pivot location for .450" will be .075" lower. How many builds machine the shaft stands? Very few. Do they still work? Yes. My point is a.030"-.060" shim means very little in the scheme of things. Personally my .800" lift roller cam has the rocker stands raised .060" so it could use existing push rods. The sweep across the valve increased by .012". Been making close to 900hp @7100 for 400+ passes. I have street motors shimmed as well. Both are run to 7000rpm.
Doug

Given the measurements I'm getting and the cam I'm using, how much shim would you apply here?