Well, I've had enough of this 440 Mystery Motor

[moparedtn]

Ha! Mixed bag stuff. Probably have my numbers wrong, but think I saw Rhodes lifters, for 'only' $200-400?

Anyway, let's get back to basics...how's that intake bolt line-up? Yeah I know...heavy. But, without gasket, which way are the manifold bolt holes, to the head holes...in, or out?
There is a chart around for the cut on intake, to keep up with cuts on the heads. Or, if in a pinch, oblong the intakes holes.

Hydraulic lifters...just keep in mind, all said and done, you don't want the tappet cup being able to make contact with the retainer ring, or clip. That's the whole idea behind pre-load, besides all-time positive contact with the push rod.

As I recall, I had to put a lot of down force on the intake to get the bolts started.
As in prybar amounts of downforce.

Now that I think about it, when I went to do the pushrod measuring thing, I tried to spin the pushrods in there now before I took the rocker shaft loose, just to see if they were all under tension/in a bind and I was able to twirl a few of them.
If my pushrods are too long, would I have been able to do that?

 

[miller]

As I recall, I had to put a lot of down force on the intake to get the bolts started.
As in prybar amounts of downforce.

That would mean the threaded bolt holes in the heads are too close together, or with the intake in place, looking inside the bolt holes, the threaded head holes would be towards the opposite head.
If that is the case...how thick are your head gaskets? Thicker head gaskets would put the threaded holes farther apart. And intake gasket...just using the tin stamped stock gasket...probably so.

Thicker head gaskets=lower CR. Might not want to mess with it, but there's a cut chart for intake/head...(can't find mine right now)

If my pushrods are too long, would I have been able to do that?

Yeah. At least some of them. Can't go by that! Go by looking at, and measuring how much the tappet piston's top surface is pushed down, from the underside of the retaining clip. That's only when that tappet is on the bottom (base circle) of the cam lobe.

 

[miller]

Here it is...

 

[moparedtn]

Here it is...
View attachment 390789

That's great - but I have no idea how much the heads were decked.
Perhaps a guess based on pushrod measurement?

The pushrods measured what, .140 shorter than stock?
I used FelPro head gasket #8519, the PermaTorque blue ones that are .040 thick

 

[dvw]

Again, does the intake fit nice with no gasket? If not: install the heads with gaskets, bolts tight. Set the intake on the engine, no gasket. Slide it back 1/2". Using a transfer punch through the bolt holes in the intake make a marks on the head, two on each head. Draw a horizontal line through those marks. Measure the distance from that line to the intake bolt hole center line on the head. The amount the line is above the center line of the bolt holes (plus the intake gasket thickness) is what you need to remove from each side of the intake. What is the lifter preload with the existing push rods? (How far is the piston beneath the lifter retaining clip?)
Doug

 

[khryslerkid]

What is the lifter preload with the existing push rods? (How far is the piston beneath the lifter retaining clip?)

Read post #241

Doing the math it looks like he has a .120 preload

 

[dvw]

Read post #241

Doing the math it looks like he has a .120 preload

Preload has not been measured with the existing pushrods. Only calculated. Never checked with shims either.
Doug

 

[oldbee]

Also if you have to cut intake mani. it'll never work on another engine unless that engine has same deck as yours. If it ain't much I'd go for elongating intake bolt holes. My $.02

 

[moparedtn]

Preload has not been measured with the existing pushrods. Only calculated. Never checked with shims either.
Doug

Copied from my post #241:

-Stock pushrod length is supposed to be 9.315 (at least according to Comp Cams)

-The "new" pushrods I ordered and installed with the heads last fall are 9.295 long

-The measured length using the checker (taking out all lash but not compressing lifters) is right at 9.175 - so if I add the 0.020 to 0.040 for lifter pre-load that Miller suggests, that puts the "needed" length at 9.195-9.215, right?

 

[moparedtn]

Also if you have to cut intake mani. it'll never work on another engine unless that engine has same deck as yours. If it ain't much I'd go for elongating intake bolt holes. My $.02

Yeah, which is why I'm going to fetch an aluminum one.

 

[miller]

The pushrods measured what, .140 shorter than stock?
I used FelPro head gasket #8519, the PermaTorque blue ones that are .040 thick

The chart I posted is pretty much guideline stuff...most of the time, might not even needed, unless things are extreme. All just for port and bolt hole line-up.

.040 thick head gaskets? Okay. You STILL need to know on the intake fit, if the holes are inside, or outside the threaded head holes. Even with cut head surfaces, it could easily be corrected, by changing thickness of the head gaskets.
I don't know what stock thickness on head gaskets are for a 75 model. Anyone?
Though, an example (on my 69 motor), stock thickness is .020. Had my block decked .005, heads surfaced .005, added together makes .010. My head gasket thickness is now .030, simply bringing it all back to stock...everything lines up.

With the non-stock parts involved (tappets/cam), pretty much always a different length push rod. Hate to say it, but that length needs to be forgotten, until you get your heads set right!

 

[Brandy]

IMHO......after 310 posts telling you what to do with this brick I would think that you could either fix the damn thing or toss it in the scrap heap. I'm getting the feeling your starved for attention, or you have the need to prove your right about everything by showing everyone else that they are wrong. For Christ's sake get it done one way or the other already. Just what it looks like to me.....

 

[Glenwood]

Kind of harsh.
I'm learning alot from reading this thread.

 

[Brandy]

OK. Not saying that the info presented is not useful. Saying the OP doesn't seem to be able to make a decision after copious info has been supplied. There are any number of threads here and elsewhere where one might gather knowledge about the venerable 440 BB.

 

[dvw]

What if the pushrod you have has a different radius on the end? We can caculate but the end result is what you are after. My bet is your intake doesn't need much of a trim. You have three options: measure and cut either the intake or the intake face of the head, or oval the intake holes even more. Even if you cut the intake you can always run thicker gaskets. Do you really care if it doesn't bolt up to another stock 440? After all of this; since preload has never been checked with the original set up no one really knows why it ran poorly or made noise. Time to turn some bolts.
Doug

 

[moparedtn]

Kind of harsh.
I'm learning alot from reading this thread.

As am I.

 

[moparedtn]

<deleted>

 

[moparedtn]

What if the pushrod you have has a different radius on the end? We can caculate but the end result is what you are after. My bet is your intake doesn't need much of a trim. You have three options: measure and cut either the intake or the intake face of the head, or oval the intake holes even more. Even if you cut the intake you can always run thicker gaskets. Do you really care if it doesn't bolt up to another stock 440? After all of this; since preload has never been checked with the original set up no one really knows why it ran poorly or made noise. Time to turn some bolts.
Doug

Thanks again, Doug.
Since you guys have talked me into trying to remedy this engine one more time....
On the intake, I believe I've chosen option 3 - modified.
I'll try the Edelbrock intake first straight up, then oval the bolt holes on it if unsuccessful - but it'll get installed one way or the other.
No, I don't care if it works on another, but by only "oval-ing" the bolt holes, hopefully I don't render it unable to be used on another engine down the line if that becomes necessary.

On the pre-load issue, I might be dense, but I thought once the required pushrod length was determined, we pretty much had figured out the whole pre-load thing?
If stock length is supposed to be 9.315 and my required (measured) length plus desired pre-load works out to 9.215, it appears I had at least 0.100 too much pre-load going on in there, right?

Yes, it's wrench turning time.
Unless someone stops me now, I'm fetching a new set of lifters (stock type design ones, probably the Sealed Power), a new set of pushrods measuring 9.215 and an intake.

 

[Ski 61701]

Ok, before you order pushrods based upon the info here, if you are going to replace the lifters, you need to recheck for OAL on pushrods just to be safe, might get lucky and pushrods might be same length or worst case you are back to a noisy valve train

 

[oldbee]

moparedtn--- totally agree with ur thinking. How many hours,days have many of us thought about "What do I do now" over&over&over. Kinda fun when you get down to the nitty-gritty.! Course it's easier when your 20yrs. old!!