Well, I've had enough of this 440 Mystery Motor

[Beekeeper]

Ed,
If you wanna take a look at the ole girl I would have some time to come tomorrow
to give you a hand. We could pull the intake, pushrods and lifters and have a look see.

 

[dieseldazzle]

Quit throwing a fit. Pull that sucker out and go through it from stem to stern so you know it like your balls and it's no longer a mystery motor

 

[62 Dart Convertible]

Quit throwing a fit. Pull that sucker out and go through it from stem to stern so you know it like your balls and it's no longer a mystery motor

Tough Love DD.

If Australia wasn't so damned far away, I'd pop to Tennessee and give you a hand too Ed...

 

[Challenger340]

I don't think your goals in a 440 are far fetched ?
I own an original '69 Charger R/T SE, UN-rebuilt, UN-restored in exceptional original condition, with a factory, and again UN-touched original 440 Magnum in good shape.
I own a Performance Machine Shop and build Drag Engines, so I am NOT easily impressed, but I find the old girl moves along just fine, can boil the hides at will and pleases me when tasked ?
I could rebuild it as easy as childsplay if I wanted to ? but alas ...it is one of "those" a guy don't mess with... because even undoing the factory original Exhaust System still in place might change/damage some thing ?

Nonetheless,
regarding your 'mystery" gremlin Block, as I do this for a living, here are my thoughts.
Please Read....
#1: The Block Oiling Diagram is correct, just the flow arrows are back-asswards in places
#2 440 Mopar Wedges, same as HEMI's like it or not, do employ a version of Main Priority Oiling 60's style, in that the Oil Pump feeds first and foremost the Pass side Lifter Bank, which then directly supplies the Rifled drilled Main/Crank Bearings...... before then crossing Oil Flow equalization over to the Drivers side Lifter Bank at the rear of the Block cross-over, the Drivers side Lifter Bank Oil gallery then dead heading up front by the Dizzy. There is no cross-over of Lifter Bank Oiling at #1 Cam bearing.
The design is Simple, Efficient, and more than Adequate.

Cam bearing Holes on #1, 2, 3 and #5 Cam Bearings, do NOTHING except supply Cam Bearing Lube, except #4 Bearing that has 3 holes, 2 leading UP to feed the heads, and one supply from the Crank, wherein the Cam Journal itself is cross drilled to provide Oil UP through the Block Gallery to the Heads for the Rockers/Shafts as the cam rotates and aligns Oil Flow intermittently to each bank.
Lifters and Cam Lobes Oil strictly from Rod/Crank throw off and limited Oil leakage around the lifter Bore.

#3 One of the problem areas for Engine Block Oiling inspection...... when contemplating rebuilding with older high mileage Blocks, is to pay special attention to an area for inspection at the Lower Lifter Bores for wear, in the area between where the Lifter Oil Gallery intersects the Lifter Bore, and the actual "Bottom" of the bore.
It is an area of approx .375", which can be down to .275" to .300" for the poorer machined Lifter load/wear area on some of the early Blocks.
This small area to inspect for wear is on the outboard side of each Lifter Bore bank, and as the cam rotates clockwise from the front, concentrates Lifter Bore rotational load/wear primarily on the bottom of the drivers side Lifter Bore below the Lifter Oil gallery.
Excessive wear at that point in the Lifter Bore, causes lack of Lifter "rotation" due to Lifter slop during operation, critical to Flat tappet longevity.

I would invite anyone reading this, to go inspect any 383/440 Block Lifter Bores visually themselves, and LOOK for what I am referencing here.... BEFORE contemplating rebuild using Hydraulic Flat Tappets ?
LOOK for the "half moon" wear pattern on the bottom portion of the drivers side Lifter Bank Bores, directly below the Oil gallery to see what I am talking about ?
We don't worry about it on Solid Flat Tappet(order oversize Lifters and re-hone to correct the Bores) or Roller Competition Drag Engines, nonetheless, running anything in the way of a "Hydraulic" lifter ? IMO, just asking for trouble ?
Just my thoughts, no wars wanted.

 

[moparedtn]

Ed,
If you wanna take a look at the ole girl I would have some time to come tomorrow
to give you a hand. We could pull the intake, pushrods and lifters and have a look see.

Thanks, my friend, and suffice to say we WILL get together here one day soon.
I had a rough day at work yesterday (spent most of it outdoors, which is really hard on me when things get cooler for some reason) and I don't have much heat in my garage yet (plan is to get a 220V heater in there to replace the little 110V "barn" heaters soon, though), so since today is sort of a recovery for me, I'm going to chill for a bit.
Soon, man, soon....
I ain't done yet and neither is the GTX.

 

[moparedtn]

Quit throwing a fit. Pull that sucker out and go through it from stem to stern so you know it like your balls and it's no longer a mystery motor

Forgive my southern speak here for a moment...
Ain't nobody pitchin' a fit here, hoss.
Just seeking to tap the vast knowledge available here - and truth be known, looking to shore up my shaky determination on seeing this thing through.
It's soooo damn close....

I'm the sort that every time a challenge shows up in life, I've always just picked it up another notch and bullheaded on.
That's the only reason I'm still above dirt, doc says. Just too mean to quit, I guess.
OTOH, my days are definitely numbered and the tank is near empty on me, so I have to save it up and hit things in bursts when possible.
I hate admitting that; pisses me off royally.

 

[moparedtn]

Tough Love DD.

If Australia wasn't so damned far away, I'd pop to Tennessee and give you a hand too Ed...

Eh, no worries.
DD has been a great help numerous times in the past - he's trying to motivate me, which I admit is needed here. I appreciate it.
Nothing on this whole project has come easy and I admit I'm looking for "easy" here now with the mystery motor. It would be nice for a change.
I'm a realist, though. I know better.
Gonna take one last big push and it's gonna hurt.
A lot.
Ain't no hill for a stepper, though.
Appreciate the kind words, I really do.

 

[493 Mike]

I gave this thread a quick read and did not see anyone talking about lifter bore alignment issues. On the 493 in my SW the bore alignment had shifted when initially machined. Dave Hughes diagnosed the problem for me. BHJ makes a fixture to correct the alignment, which involves lifter bore bushing. I had mine done by a local shop on their Rotler brand mill without the BHJ fixture, just computer input. This must be a fairly common problem with the newer factory blocks-tooling wearing out.
Mike

 

[moparedtn]

I don't think your goals in a 440 are far fetched ?
I own an original '69 Charger R/T SE, UN-rebuilt, UN-restored in exceptional original condition, with a factory, and again UN-touched original 440 Magnum in good shape.
I own a Performance Machine Shop and build Drag Engines, so I am NOT easily impressed, but I find the old girl moves along just fine, can boil the hides at will and pleases me when tasked ?
I could rebuild it as easy as childsplay if I wanted to ? but alas ...it is one of "those" a guy don't mess with... because even undoing the factory original Exhaust System still in place might change/damage some thing ?

Nonetheless,
regarding your 'mystery" gremlin Block, as I do this for a living, here are my thoughts.
Please Read....
#1: The Block Oiling Diagram is correct, just the flow arrows are back-asswards in places
#2 440 Mopar Wedges, same as HEMI's like it or not, do employ a version of Main Priority Oiling 60's style, in that the Oil Pump feeds first and foremost the Pass side Lifter Bank, which then directly supplies the Rifled drilled Main/Crank Bearings...... before then crossing Oil Flow equalization over to the Drivers side Lifter Bank at the rear of the Block cross-over, the Drivers side Lifter Bank Oil gallery then dead heading up front by the Dizzy. There is no cross-over of Lifter Bank Oiling at #1 Cam bearing.
The design is Simple, Efficient, and more than Adequate.

Cam bearing Holes on #1, 2, 3 and #5 Cam Bearings, do NOTHING except supply Cam Bearing Lube, except #4 Bearing that has 3 holes, 2 leading UP to feed the heads, and one supply from the Crank, wherein the Cam Journal itself is cross drilled to provide Oil UP through the Block Gallery to the Heads for the Rockers/Shafts as the cam rotates and aligns Oil Flow intermittently to each bank.
Lifters and Cam Lobes Oil strictly from Rod/Crank throw off and limited Oil leakage around the lifter Bore.

#3 One of the problem areas for Engine Block Oiling inspection...... when contemplating rebuilding with older high mileage Blocks, is to pay special attention to an area for inspection at the Lower Lifter Bores for wear, in the area between where the Lifter Oil Gallery intersects the Lifter Bore, and the actual "Bottom" of the bore.
It is an area of approx .375", which can be down to .275" to .300" for the poorer machined Lifter load/wear area on some of the early Blocks.
This small area to inspect for wear is on the outboard side of each Lifter Bore bank, and as the cam rotates clockwise from the front, concentrates Lifter Bore rotational load/wear primarily on the bottom of the drivers side Lifter Bore below the Lifter Oil gallery.
Excessive wear at that point in the Lifter Bore, causes lack of Lifter "rotation" due to Lifter slop during operation, critical to Flat tappet longevity.

I would invite anyone reading this, to go inspect any 383/440 Block Lifter Bores visually themselves, and LOOK for what I am referencing here.... BEFORE contemplating rebuild using Hydraulic Flat Tappets ?
LOOK for the "half moon" wear pattern on the bottom portion of the drivers side Lifter Bank Bores, directly below the Oil gallery to see what I am talking about ?
We don't worry about it on Solid Flat Tappet(order oversize Lifters and re-hone to correct the Bores) or Roller Competition Drag Engines, nonetheless, running anything in the way of a "Hydraulic" lifter ? IMO, just asking for trouble ?
Just my thoughts, no wars wanted.

Wow, that's a ton to digest right there! Thanks much for this.
So much useful information, I've read it over a few times now and think I get the jist of it.
"The design is Simple, Efficient, and more than Adequate."
That's good to read; as much as I've researched on this the last few days, I've seen web sites where some people have heavily modified their oiling systems on these, apparently in an effort to avoid problems like this one is having.
The voice in the back of my head keeps telling me, though, you've owned a dozen 440's in this life and all were rock-solid reliable.

It is interesting to note the difference in oiling design in these old blocks versus say a Chevy, where the lifters are pumping oil up the pushrods and such.
In these, the rockers get their oil from a different route than the lifters.
Pretty radically different, right there.
I've been erroneously calling the #4 cam bearing "#2" also, I see. I stand corrected.

It will be interesting to see if this block has the wear at the bottoms of the lifter bores as you describe.
So, if I understand correctly, you're advocating against using a flat tappet hydraulic cam setup altogether?

 

[moparedtn]

I might have just gotten a line on a '68 short block that a fella has had for 30+ years and is willing to part with.
Says crank is ready to go and already has new bearings and rings to go with the deal.
We'll see....

 

[62 Dart Convertible]

Start with the simple first Ed. Is there evidence (or a lack of evidence) of lubrication reaching your rocker shafts? If not, as written above -

""Cam bearing Holes on #1, 2, 3 and #5 Cam Bearings, do NOTHING except supply Cam Bearing Lube, except #4 Bearing that has 3 holes, 2 leading UP to feed the heads, and one supply from the Crank, wherein the Cam Journal itself is cross drilled to provide Oil UP through the Block Gallery to the Heads for the Rockers/Shafts as the cam rotates and aligns Oil Flow intermittently to each bank.""

I'd start by checking if your problem is No 4 cam bearing was installed incorrectly... (by either building oil pressure with priming shaft while turning crank slowly with wrench and looking for oil to rockers OR by removing cam and rocker gear and sticking a thin wire (or air from a nozzle) through oil supply passage in heads down to no 4 cam bearing holes...

 

[Challenger340]

It will be interesting to see if this block has the wear at the bottoms of the lifter bores as you describe.
So, if I understand correctly, you're advocating against using a flat tappet hydraulic cam setup altogether?

Just me...
But "Hydraulic" lifter anything used in the same sentence with "performance" is an oxymoron if there ever was one ?

I don't want to focus you too hard at this point strictly on the Lifter Bores ? just saying it is another commonly missed area on BB Mopars to check for problems if you can't find anything else during teardown & inspection related to your problem in assessment of the Block for reuse ?

Just say'in... check the bottoms of the Lifter Bores direct below the Oil gallery intersect for wear first before you decide on anything, because excessive wear there leaks lifeblood Oil... and..... resists adequate Lifter rotation on the Lobe during operation(Lifter/Cam Lobe failure).
We bush Lifter Bores on a regular basis as well using a Mill/BHJ fixture, But we do it more for Hyd Roller setups where Lifter Body Clrc must be maintained in the Bore to keep the Lifter pumped up against the higher Roller V/Spring rates without collapsing ?
nonetheless IMO, it is an expensive proposition on an otherwise "stock" type 440 Block and Build ?

If you do find excessive Lifter Bore wear at the bottom, and you are dead set on running a Hydraulic or Solid Flat Tappet, a far cheaper alternative to Bushing the Bores is you may wish to have your Machinist guy try contacting Dave Popp @ topline(dunno if he is still their as topline have had problems ?), and inquire about just doing up a set of "oversize" Flat Tappet Lifters, wherein as a cheaper repair you can then just "Hone" the Bores out to correct. Although just honing out does nothing to correct Lifter Bore misalignment, but if it ran fine before, it will again ?

 

[moparedtn]

Just me...
But "Hydraulic" lifter anything used in the same sentence with "performance" is an oxymoron if there ever was one ?
...
I don't want to focus you too hard at this point strictly on the Lifter Bores ? just saying it is another commonly missed area on BB Mopars to check for problems if you can't find anything else during teardown & inspection related to your problem in assessment of the Block for reuse ?

Well, I dunno about all that "performance" talk.
Heck, man, if I could just get a stock factory 375hp 440 magnum like came in the critter, I'd be happier than....well, you know.
Not looking for a whole lot more than that - just a happy, bulletproof critter that behaves like they did "back when".
If modern practices and materials gives me more power from the same type engine setup, all the while maintaining that level of dependability, then more the better I reckon.

 

[moparedtn]

Start with the simple first Ed. Is there evidence (or a lack of evidence) of lubrication reaching your rocker shafts? If not, as written above -

""Cam bearing Holes on #1, 2, 3 and #5 Cam Bearings, do NOTHING except supply Cam Bearing Lube, except #4 Bearing that has 3 holes, 2 leading UP to feed the heads, and one supply from the Crank, wherein the Cam Journal itself is cross drilled to provide Oil UP through the Block Gallery to the Heads for the Rockers/Shafts as the cam rotates and aligns Oil Flow intermittently to each bank.""

I'd start by checking if your problem is No 4 cam bearing was installed incorrectly... (by either building oil pressure with priming shaft while turning crank slowly with wrench and looking for oil to rockers OR by removing cam and rocker gear and sticking a thin wire (or air from a nozzle) through oil supply passage in heads down to no 4 cam bearing holes...

I think I've decided so far that I'm going to tear the critter back down to the block while still in the car, reversing what I did when I put the 906's on it.
I'll do that in stages and try to document it as I go.
Step one: valve covers off, observe rockers, etc.
Step two: Intake off, observe valley, lifters, etc.
Step three: All accessories off front, timing cover off, cam out, etc.
And so on.
I might not see a damn thing, but maybe if I take pics and post them here, some of y'all will?
If anything else, it will make the eventual extraction of the block a little lighter/easier on me, eh?

 

[Cranky]

Just me...
But "Hydraulic" lifter anything used in the same sentence with "performance" is an oxymoron if there ever was one ?

Why can't performance and hydraulic be used in the same sentence? Yeah, there are limitations with juice cams but there are also trade offs with solid cams too.

 

[Ski 61701]

Sounds like a logical plan you have. This is where the dental mirror that mentioned earlier comes into play regarding giving things a good checkout. Once you have the cam out run the wire down from the head like 62 Dart mentioned. Focus on the lifter bores that housed the lifters when you had the munched mp cam. Maybe a lifter got cocked just enough that you now have a bell shaped lifter bore hence the noise you now hear. If you have access to a mic or at least calipers check diameter of the lifters. Hoping to rule those out as being bad. Insert the clean lifter in the bore and see if you can rock it sideways during its length of travel in the bore. Id then take the dental mirror and look up into bore with the lifter bottom even with the bottom of the bore and see what things look like. Im with the others on bushing lifter bores. I know things are tight for you and I sincerely hope this isnt your problem, but if by chance it is, you have more than likely found your problem and you can chalk everything up to just worn out parts. And dont feel bad if it is, im sure there are a lot of people who put motors together and things like this happens but they never do anything with it, you on the other hand sound like you are particular with things and want to solve the problem. Kudos to you for wanting to fix it

 

[dieseldazzle]

Hey man no matter what you decide motor wise it's still an awesome b body and you still got two feet on the ground!!!

 

[Ski 61701]

Just had another thought for people to put their .02 in. After you remove the intake and distributor while the cam and lifters are in it with rockers still bolted down hook up your oil pump priming rod and prime the motor. Since you know how post videos (i dont know how) video the lifter bores. I think those that are really verse in what things look like in this area might be able see something really obvious. If you have a manual oil press gauge hook that up while you are priming and share that info with us. Maybe we get lucky with helping you out

 

[moparedtn]

Sounds like a logical plan you have. This is where the dental mirror that mentioned earlier comes into play regarding giving things a good checkout. Once you have the cam out run the wire down from the head like 62 Dart mentioned. Focus on the lifter bores that housed the lifters when you had the munched mp cam. Maybe a lifter got cocked just enough that you now have a bell shaped lifter bore hence the noise you now hear. If you have access to a mic or at least calipers check diameter of the lifters. Hoping to rule those out as being bad. Insert the clean lifter in the bore and see if you can rock it sideways during its length of travel in the bore. Id then take the dental mirror and look up into bore with the lifter bottom even with the bottom of the bore and see what things look like. Im with the others on bushing lifter bores. I know things are tight for you and I sincerely hope this isnt your problem, but if by chance it is, you have more than likely found your problem and you can chalk everything up to just worn out parts. And dont feel bad if it is, im sure there are a lot of people who put motors together and things like this happens but they never do anything with it, you on the other hand sound like you are particular with things and want to solve the problem. Kudos to you for wanting to fix it

Well, I sincerely hope it isn't lifters, since they're new Comp Cams ones with, at this point, a few hundred miles at best on them - but never say never, I guess.

Heck, man, I've come this far. Got to see this through.
So damn close...
Thanks for the reply.

 

[moparedtn]

Hey man no matter what you decide motor wise it's still an awesome b body and you still got two feet on the ground!!!

"Almost" and "barely".
Thanks, DD. Always appreciate you.