Well, I've had enough of this 440 Mystery Motor

[oldbee]

I always have used the factory valley/intake pan. Maybe too much height with all your composite gaskets?

 

[jusglazin]

The lifters look like they are collapsed.

 

[Cornpatch MO]

View attachment 388185 Drivers' valve cover off. Rockers all snug, no sign of collapsed lifters or wiped lobes. Oil evident on all rockers.
Passenger side now. Ditto on comments. All appears well.
View attachment 388186

It appears ok, next thing, I would pull the dist and use a primer rod and variable speed drill to check oil flow, and if you have mechanical guage run drill till you have 40-50lbs. oil pressure. Don't forget to turn camshaft to make sur you are getting oil to both banks. Make sure you are getting oil to all rockers good luck.......................MO

 

[Cornpatch MO]

Nobody yet? OK, moving on...
Spark plugs removed. View attachment 388198 View attachment 388199

#5 looks clean as new ??......................MO

 

[moparedtn]

It appears ok, next thing, I would pull the dist and use a primer rod and variable speed drill to check oil flow, and if you have mechanical guage run drill till you have 40-50lbs. oil pressure. Don't forget to turn camshaft to make sur you are getting oil to both banks. Make sure you are getting oil to all rockers good luck.......................MO

Hey CM, thanks for the advice.
You still think that's necessary, though? Pretty convincing evidence of oil getting to the rockers here, especially since it's been almost three weeks since it last ran.

 

[moparedtn]

#5 looks clean as new ??......................MO

Pretty close, yeah.
All 4 middle ones do, really; they look really lean.
I've read before where blocking off the heat crossover on a street 440 actually may not be a good idea. Something about the middle cylinders actually needing that heat for proper fuel atomization or some such?

 

[moparedtn]

I always have used the factory valley/intake pan. Maybe too much height with all your composite gaskets?

Me too, but in this case I did a dry mock-up using just the bathtub and was having bolt alignment issues, so I added them in thinking they were needed.
Turns out, alignment got worse when I did and wasn't real good even when they were removed - so much so that I pretty much had to force things to get bolts started with even just the bathtub in place.

 

[miller]

There's no way to tell, without taking the block down, to measure deck height. Saying if your deck has been cut, and not knowing the number, can easily be making your bolt alignment problems on your intake. Do you know details on the block's machine work?
If that is the problem, another intake will not fix it, until the problem is fixed.

 

[Glenwood]

If the block has been decked

There's no way to tell, without taking the block down, to measure deck height. Saying if your deck has been cut, and not knowing the number, can easily be making your bolt alignment problems on your intake. Do you know details on the block's machine work?
If that is the problem, another intake will not fix it, until the problem is fixed.

If the block has been decked, does the intake/heads also need machining or is there a certain amount of tolerance?

 

[dvw]

If the intake were leaking the plugs would be oil contaminated, they are not. As for comments made in this thread. Upside down rocker shafts? Spun cam bearings? The lifters look collapsed? The plugs are lean? The rockers are getting oil, nothing is blue from lack of oil. Lean wouldn't cause valvetrain noise. How can a collapsed lifter be "seen"? Without running the engine and listening with a stethoscope or touching each rocker arm while running there is no way of knowing where the noise came from. Now its either reassemble to test. Or take it all apart and have a GOOD engine builder look at the components. We do know the intake fit poorly and was tough to install. We also know the plugs do appear different. How long was it run recently before they were pulled? Pulling a plug after driving into a garage or a slow drive around town shows NOTHING about mixture. Many problems can be caused by many small issues. Doing good detective work requires a keen eye and experience to find tough problems. I have found cracks. clearance issues, cracked oil gallerys, among other weird stuff. But the first step is always think simple, start simple. If we did indeed have valve train noise. It appears there was oil to the top. Rocker shaft bolts tight?. Pushrods not bent. Springs are not broken. Cam lobes not worn. What does that leave? Either it has a collapsed lifter or the noise is coming from a different area. The valve guides/lifter bores didn't suddenly get way loose. Just my 2 cents.
Doug

 

[moparedtn]

There's no way to tell, without taking the block down, to measure deck height. Saying if your deck has been cut, and not knowing the number, can easily be making your bolt alignment problems on your intake. Do you know details on the block's machine work?
If that is the problem, another intake will not fix it, until the problem is fixed.

You are correct. It is a mystery motor, so I don't know what (if any) machining has been done to the block. I do know the 906's I recently installed have been milled.

 

[moparedtn]

Howdy dvw, glad you're here. I'll try to answer some of these:

If the intake were leaking the plugs would be oil contaminated, they are not...
We do know the intake fit poorly and was tough to install. We also know the plugs do appear different. How long was it run recently before they were pulled? Pulling a plug after driving into a garage or a slow drive around town shows NOTHING about mixture.

This is the type of information that is helpful!
Ok then, assuming that, I guess the answer for the plug differences could be because I was running the heat block-off bathtub, like I read about?
The engine has a few hundred miles on it since the head swap/plug change.

As for comments made in this thread. Upside down rocker shafts? Spun cam bearings? The lifters look collapsed? The plugs are lean? The rockers are getting oil, nothing is blue from lack of oil. Lean wouldn't cause valvetrain noise. How can a collapsed lifter be "seen"?

Yep, like I said I am pleased with the evidence of proper oiling going on in there.
I knew I put the top end back together correctly, but no idea of passages down in the block and such.
There's nothing sloppy in the valvetrain, no bent pushrods, no collapsed lifters/wiped lobes anyways.

Without running the engine and listening with a stethoscope or touching each rocker arm while running there is no way of knowing where the noise came from. Now its either reassemble to test. Or take it all apart and have a GOOD engine builder look at the components. Many problems can be caused by many small issues. Doing good detective work requires a keen eye and experience to find tough problems. I have found cracks. clearance issues, cracked oil gallerys, among other weird stuff. But the first step is always think simple, start simple. If we did indeed have valve train noise. It appears there was oil to the top. Rocker shaft bolts tight?. Pushrods not bent. Springs are not broken. Cam lobes not worn. What does that leave? Either it has a collapsed lifter or the noise is coming from a different area. The valve guides/lifter bores didn't suddenly get way loose. Just my 2 cents.
Doug

Nope, no collapsed lifters, rocker shaft bolts were checked and remain torqued, no bent pushrods, no broken springs. Some of the lobes look sort of funny in wear pattern (probably worn lifter bores) but not wiped.

To tell the truth, the noise I hear is only half the story - the thing literally felt like it was dropping a cylinder, started running real rough and wouldn't hold an idle.
This happened all at once, after the initial trip into town went quietly and uneventfully.
Then on the way back, after a few heat cycles, going into stores, etc. it reappeared again, just like it's always done before.
Like you said, I'm thinking at this point I've got a good idea what it isn't, since this has now occurred with totally different heads/pushrods/carb/ignition/plugs/cam & lifters.
Oil pressure has been really good all along, confirmed both with mechanical and electrical gauges.
Whatever it is, it comes back time and again, after initially showing signs of being ok after repairs/mods are completed. Once it "goes bad", it stays bad, too - I can start it up cold next time and the problem is still there, even though it initially showed up when it was warmed up previously and driven a while.

Just not figuring out what it IS?
Should be process of elimination.

 

[dvw]

To tell the truth, the noise I hear is only half the story - the thing literally felt like it was dropping a cylinder, started running real rough and wouldn't hold an idle.
This happened all at once, after the initial trip into town went quietly and uneventfully.
Then on the way back, after a few heat cycles, going into stores, etc. it reappeared again, just like it's always done before
Whatever it is, it comes back time and again, after initially showing signs of being ok after repairs/mods are completed. Once it "goes bad", it stays bad, too - I can start it up cold next time and the problem is still there, even though it initially showed up when it was warmed up previously and driven.[/QUOTE]
Does the noise and poor running happen at exactly the same time? Are we sure the noise wasn't spark jumping to ground? or was is much louder? Also blocking the heat riser will not affect rich/lean once the engine is at running temp, warm-up , then yes.
Doug

 

[moparedtn]

To tell the truth, the noise I hear is only half the story - the thing literally felt like it was dropping a cylinder, started running real rough and wouldn't hold an idle.
This happened all at once, after the initial trip into town went quietly and uneventfully.
Then on the way back, after a few heat cycles, going into stores, etc. it reappeared again, just like it's always done before
Whatever it is, it comes back time and again, after initially showing signs of being ok after repairs/mods are completed. Once it "goes bad", it stays bad, too - I can start it up cold next time and the problem is still there, even though it initially showed up when it was warmed up previously and driven.

Does the noise and poor running happen at exactly the same time? Are we sure the noise wasn't spark jumping to ground? or was is much louder? Also blocking the heat riser will not affect rich/lean once the engine is at running temp, warm-up , then yes.
Doug[/QUOTE]
Oh no, it's louder and quite mechanical - and yes, it's in "time" with the roughnesses' rhythm, almost like a valve sticking or some such, a clack clack of sorts - but it's sporadic, too, comes and goes. The roughness, once it appears, doesn't leave however, like a fouled plug or something.
It comes from up top on drivers' side, near as I can tell.

 

[khryslerkid]

Just a thought.

Before you tear it down too far, check your lifter preload.

You are useing a set of heads that have been shaved, which in turn will shorten the distance from the rocker to your lifter. If your pushrods are a tad too long, you will have a lifter collapse causing the noisy rocker and the miss in the cylinder.

 

[Ski 61701]

By chance I wonder if your intake has a crack in it, and the crack changes as the motor gets hot, now you have a vacuum leak and a rough running motor. Im basing this off of the fact you had a hard time getting things to line up, and maybe once you torqued it down a small crack starts. Since you have it off either have it magged or look at it real close. From your pics it looks like everything is being oiled ok, cam lobes look ok, just a couple look a little off center with wear pattern. Plugs look a liitle odd hence my inquiry on possible cracked intake

 

[moparedtn]

Just a thought.

Before you tear it down too far, check your lifter preload.

You are useing a set of heads that have been shaved, which in turn will shorten the distance from the rocker to your lifter. If your pushrods are a tad too long, you will have a lifter collapse causing the noisy rocker and the miss in the cylinder.

This is an excellent suggestion and one I've been mulling over myself today.
Even though no lifters are showing collapse at the moment (I get zero movement when I try to force the rockers down), it would make sense that this happens after the engine gets warmed up and the oil viscosity gets thinner.
Thanks!
Think I'll fetch a pushrod checker....

 

[moparedtn]

By chance I wonder if your intake has a crack in it, and the crack changes as the motor gets hot, now you have a vacuum leak and a rough running motor. Im basing this off of the fact you had a hard time getting things to line up, and maybe once you torqued it down a small crack starts. Since you have it off either have it magged or look at it real close. From your pics it looks like everything is being oiled ok, cam lobes look ok, just a couple look a little off center with wear pattern. Plugs look a liitle odd hence my inquiry on possible cracked intake

Yessir, I agree. Only thing that explains those plugs looking like that, least to my ignorant eyes.
This issue will resolve itself with my declaration that this intake will never be installed on this engine again.
Time to fetch a nice aftermarket aluminum intake.
I guess the choices for a fairly stock engine are either (single plane) Street Dominator or (dual plane) Edelbrock Performer?

 

[moparedtn]

These are the pushrods currently in there:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-7412-16

I had looked up that the stock ones were supposedly 9.315 I think?

 

[khryslerkid]

This is an excellent suggestion and one I've been mulling over myself today.
Even though no lifters are showing collapse at the moment (I get zero movement when I try to force the rockers down), it would make sense that this happens after the engine gets warmed up and the oil viscosity gets thinner.
Thanks!
Think I'll fetch a pushrod checker....

If you set the cam for the particular rocker/lifter you are going to check, then look at the lifter cup and see how far down it is from the wire clip that holds it in.

You could guestimate for now. (Do a visual)
Is it .020 below the wire clip, or is it .100 below or more ect.