Would a 71 B Body out handle a 2018 BMW M3?

[cubanmoparnut54]

O



Thank you

thank you, exactly why I didn’t even bother replying.

Yeah, I just don't know thats why I'm asking. I could've gotten a nice BMW for what I paid for my car but obviously, I didn't

 

[cubanmoparnut54]

IMO all of the mods that you are proposing will make your car handle very well especially of you tie that body together with torque boxes and subframe connectors. These cars were not made all that well and being unibody provides a lot of body flex. You can mitigate ride through your choice of torsion bars, sway bar adjustment and shocks.

I also believe that "handling" is a very relative thing for the majority of people. You say that your previous GM cars handled better than "some of the late model performance cars". Was this just seat of the pants handling or did you put them on a road course or run autocross with them?

Bottom line is that you can get your car to handle very well but establishing a comparison like a M3 or something I think its both subjective and a stretch. I can tell you that I have all of the items you mention and then some in my 73 Cuda and it handles well but not as well as my 01 Viper GTS ACR and while probably better than my 10 Challenger RT not by a whole lot.

Yeah, I'm just interested in how far I can actually take a 50-year-old design and compare it to a modern performance suspension system.

 

[cubanmoparnut54]

IMO all of the mods that you are proposing will make your car handle very well especially of you tie that body together with torque boxes and subframe connectors. These cars were not made all that well and being unibody provides a lot of body flex. You can mitigate ride through your choice of torsion bars, sway bar adjustment and shocks.

I also believe that "handling" is a very relative thing for the majority of people. You say that your previous GM cars handled better than "some of the late model performance cars". Was this just seat of the pants handling or did you put them on a road course or run autocross with them?

Bottom line is that you can get your car to handle very well but establishing a comparison like a M3 or something I think its both subjective and a stretch. I can tell you that I have all of the items you mention and then some in my 73 Cuda and it handles well but not as well as my 01 Viper GTS ACR and while probably better than my 10 Challenger RT not by a whole lot.

And that's interesting that it doesn't handle that much better than your late-model challenger despite being so much lighter.

 

[RemCharger]

Yeah, I'm just interested in how far I can actually take a 50-year-old design and compare it to a modern performance suspension system.

Ever watched " are you faster than a redneck"?
That show would answer all your questions

 

[70chall440]

And that's interesting that it doesn't handle that much better than your late-model challenger despite being so much lighter.

Its all about design IMO, the 10 Challenger was designed to use IRS, R&P, etc. it is also lower which helps considerably.

 

[Purepony]

Yeah, I just don't know thats why I'm asking. I could've gotten a nice BMW for what I paid for my car but obviously, I didn't

Yeah, you could’ve gotten a BMW but then again you would look like everybody else.

It’s a different car and a different kind of cool when it comes to these type of automobiles.

This is something you can keep for the next 25 years with the BMW, I feel like that’s just a fad that wears out.

 

[chargervert]

My fun car back in the day and wish I still had it.

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Cut it out with the Gosh Darned T2 will you pleeeaaase!

 

[chargervert]

Two words if you even want to have a chance. Reilly Motorsports!

 

[Kern Dog]

Yeah, I'm just interested in how far I can actually take a 50-year-old design and compare it to a modern performance suspension system.

50 years of development has to be worth something.
The argument that these cars are unibody and that they flex is crap. They are stiffer than the body on frame GM cars. ALL new cars are unibody too though....In the interest of reduced interior noise, foam is injected into frame rails and voids. Computers were used to determine loads and stresses so newer unibodies are certainly stiffer.
Sure, frame connectors and torque boxes can close the gap between the old cars and the new. US Cartool makes some interesting reinforcements.
Back to the original topic though....
Out handle is sort of vague and non specific. One needs to pinpoint exactly what type of driving is intended to form a comparison.
Slalom? Skidpad? Autocross? Road Course? Could you run some laps on a road course and compare times?
Even with the hard data, out handle could be a matter of opinion. Some combinations inspire confidence and feel great. Others may perform well but don't feel right. Determining which one out handles the other may be a matter of opinion.
It is fun to think our classics may be able to outperform a sophisticated import sport sedan but you have a long way to go to get there.

 

[Kern Dog]

Two words if you even want to have a chance. Reilly Motorsports!

There is no proof anywhere that these cheesy coil over suspension kits are any better than a well sorted torsion bar system.

 

[autoxcuda]

Would take moving the battery to the trunk, an aluminum radiator, maybe a mini starter. My 71 Coronet is 54/46 bone stock. The 71 up cars are neither as heavy nor as nose heavy as people seem to think.
This is my Coronet on my corner scales when I first got it. It's lighter now. With some work I could get it to 50/50.


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What motor, trans and rear end are in your 4 door Coronet? Disks, swaybars?

I wonder if the added rear weight of the 4 door is putting rear weight.

To get to 50/50 you'd probably have to be 1650lbs/1650lbs. And dropping weight to 3300.
So that's:
- removing 177 lbs off the car total
- dropping 228 lbs off the front
- adding 50 lbs off the rear

Getting 228 lbs off the front is the hard part. Sure the first 100 you can come up spending some money... it's the last 128 is the really hard and really expensive part.

 

[autoxcuda]

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Maybe YOU don't know how to make an old car handle but some people do.
Guess what? You don't have to keep 15" wheels and bias ply tires on your car! These cars can be made to handle quite well. It has been proven.

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Tim Werner's old Red Valiant has a full roll cage in it. When Dr Bob that has professional road race experience drove it, he could totally tell it had a cage. That Valiant has a 500+HP stroker, alum 833 trans, fairly gutted interior, no carpet, race seats, etc, etc. in about 2013 he had it as PIR and it was keeping up with a Corvette Z06. Not sure what generation Z06. I've computer scale weighed it. I have the picture somewhere.

The AAR cuda clone from Europe is a full on dedicated race car.

 

[chargervert]

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There is no proof anywhere that these cheesy coil over suspension kits are any better than a well sorted torsion bar system.

I have driven one with the suspension kit in it and it's night and day.

 

[Rennkafer]

What motor, trans and rear end are in your 4 door Coronet? Disks, swaybars?

I wonder if the added rear weight of the 4 door is putting rear weight.

To get to 50/50 you'd probably have to be 1650lbs/1650lbs. And dropping weight to 3300.
So that's:
- removing 177 lbs off the car total
- dropping 228 lbs off the front
- adding 50 lbs off the rear

Getting 228 lbs off the front is the hard part. Sure the first 100 you can come up... it's the last 128 is the really hard and expensive part.

Stock, all iron 318/904/8 1/4" rear, drums, no swaybars. I could lose 100lbs by throwing on aluminum heads and intake, and move weight rearward by putting in an 8 3/4" The 4 door may have more rear weight bias, when I get a chance I'll have to get the '71 Satellite 2dr I just bought on the scales and see what the difference is.

You're not wrong that it wouldn't be a simple matter to get to 50/50, but I'm pretty confident it could be done. I'm currently in process of adding swaybars, disc brakes at both ends, larger torsion bars, etc so we'll see where it ends up at after the work is done.

 

[Kern Dog]

I have driven one with the suspension kit in it and it's night and day.

I agree. The upgraded torsion bar suspension is light years better than the fragile coil over junk.

 

[Moparfever65]

Theoretically a 71 Roadrunner with a firm feel/Borgeson 14:1 steering box, boxed lowers tubular uppers and poly bushings with bigger torsion bars and big sway bars front & rear vs a new M3? which owuld handle better?

Depends on the track and what you mean by "handle". The big problem is that when you transition from a LH turn to a RH turn, your car has to transfer weight and take a set into a stable state. During that transition you're not going to be at your maximum traction. More weight means a longer transition time, so in a slalom the lighter car will always have an advantage, given that it's set up correctly.

 

[andyf]

Theoretically a 71 Roadrunner with a firm feel/Borgeson 14:1 steering box, boxed lowers tubular uppers and poly bushings with bigger torsion bars and big sway bars front & rear vs a new M3? which owuld handle better?

M3 will always win that match up

 

[andyf]

Tim Werner's old Red Valiant has a full roll cage in it. When Dr Bob that has professional road race experience drove it, he could totally tell it had a cage. That Valiant has a 500+HP stroker, alum 833 trans, fairly gutted interior, no carpet, race seats, etc, etc. in about 2013 he had it as PIR and it was keeping up with a Corvette Z06. Not sure what generation Z06. I've computer scale weighed it. I have the picture somewhere.

The AAR cuda clone from Europe is a full on dedicated race car.

 

[Rennkafer]

Depends on the track and what you mean by "handle". The big problem is that when you transition from a LH turn to a RH turn, your car has to transfer weight and take a set into a stable state. During that transition you're not going to be at your maximum traction. More weight means a longer transition time, so in a slalom the lighter car will always have an advantage, given that it's set up correctly.

And the BMW is the heavier car. There's a lot more to it than that though, which is why the BMW would likely win.

 

[Rennkafer]

Tim Werner's old Red Valiant has a full roll cage in it. When Dr Bob that has professional road race experience drove it, he could totally tell it had a cage. That Valiant has a 500+HP stroker, alum 833 trans, fairly gutted interior, no carpet, race seats, etc, etc. in about 2013 he had it as PIR and it was keeping up with a Corvette Z06. Not sure what generation Z06. I've computer scale weighed it. I have the picture somewhere.

The AAR cuda clone from Europe is a full on dedicated race car.

While beating a Z06 is an achievement, I used to beat up on 911's with a 2 liter 914 at PCA events. It wasn't because the car was faster, it was because I had (at that time) 15+ years of track experience and the 911 drivers didn't. Now if the same guy was driving the Z06 and the Valiant and the Valiant was still faster, that would be impressive.