Leaving Power on the Table, 440

[threewood]

So I have been looking at my combo and thinking about getting a new cam with a bit more duration but was wondering if that is my bottleneck for more power. Not too woried about street manners and would like something a bit more lumpy at idle. I do intend to race a bit at the track in Roswell, which is 3573 elevation.

Here is what I currently have...
440 block, .040" over, stock stroke
Forged crank
KB 237 pistons zero deck
FelPro head gaskets .039" compressed
Stealth Heads, CNC ported (Intake 311cfm @.550 lift / exhaust 210cfm @ .550" lift)
Hughes 1.5 Rocker arms
Holley Sniper EFI 550 (650 max HP)
Holley Street Dominator single plane intake
1 7/8" long tube headers into 2.5" exhaust
Pertronix Ignitor III
Cam - Hughes STL3842BS solid lifter, 105* centerline, Duration at .050" 238* / 242*, Lift .558" I / .564" E
PTC 9.5" torque converter
3.55 rear end ratio on 275/65 R15 tires

Air in, air out right? I like the cam but the engine seems to top out a little over 5700 rpms, which is where the cam power band ends. I was thinking a similar cam with more duration to bump the power up into the 5900 - 6000 rpm range. Car has plenty of power down low as it sits. But am I hitting a road block with the intake or the headers or even the heads?

Best 1/4 and E.T at 3573 elevation was a 13.15 @ 106.81

Looking at the Hughes STL4650BS, centerline 104*, duration at .050" 246* / 250*, Lift .576 I / .588" E. I would be able to keep my springs as the specs are identical as to pressure. And I want to stay with solid lifter. I'm not interested in going roller.

Thanks!

 

[33 IMP]

My first take on your combo is that it looks like a high elevens ride, at sea-level. So, maybe mid twelves at altitude. What is your weight, and do you have an adjusted altitude for the weather? DA of 6000 feet will slow you down quite a bit.
I have a similar cam (557 purple solid) with a lot less cylinder head, that will spin to 6500 easily, but runs quicker shifted at 5900.
Frankly, I would look at the 2 1/2 exhaust, and the f.i. as the corks. (If it were a hydraulic cam, that would have been my first suggestion, for change).
Edit: looked again at your post. My purple cam has similar lift to yours, but nearly 20° more duration.

 

[threewood]

My first take on your combo is that it looks like a high elevens ride, at sea-level. So, maybe mid twelves at altitude. What is your weight, and do you have an adjusted altitude for the weather? DA of 6000 feet will slow you down quite a bit.
I have a similar cam (557 purple solid) with a lot less cylinder head, that will spin to 6500 easily, but runs quicker shifted at 5900.
Frankly, I would look at the 2 1/2 exhaust, and the f.i. as the corks. (If it were a hydraulic cam, that would have been my first suggestion, for change).
Edit: looked again at your post. My purple cam has similar lift to yours, but nearly 20° more duration.

I haven't weighed it. The only weight reduction is a fiberglass hood, aluminum heads, aluminum intake, and aluminum water pump.

DA is 4489

Exhaust would be easy to fiddle with. I could drop it after the 02 sensor. Would a 2" header make a big difference up to 6000rpm?

 

[33 IMP]

I don't think the header is a huge problem, and I think that what you might gain from a 2" header would not justify the expense (tho I am using a 2"hooker adjustable super comp)
If you drop the exhaust at the track, make sure you run some collector extensions, around 18" I have seen them worth 50 ft/lb in the midrange.
Dropping the exhaust is a good way to find out if the 2 1/2 is too small. (Three inch should be enough, tho I'm famous for overkill- I have run 2" headers and 3 1/2 exhaust on a N/A small block, lol)

 

[Doorkicker]

Just a quick gut reaction, without spending a ton... Advance the cam, put 1.6 rockers in, and get headers with 3" collectors (in that order). If you go bigger headers you may need to slip a bigger cam in. Just my $0.02 without knowing anything about the car. And consider getting with Andrew for some sniper tuning ([email protected]).

 

[forphorty]

Your et is slow for your mph. Do you have regular street tires or are they stickies?

 

[Curiousyellow71]

For sure your combo would like a larger cam, but your exhaust could be a bottleneck. Do you have a x pipe?
When picking a cam...remember the cams lift does not determine the power band only duration. 238/242 in a solid isn't big in a 440 and I would not expect it to like 6000. In a hydraulic that is only comparable to around 230/234. Hughes cams have aggressive profiles that give them lots of lift but that doesn't help them rev more then a cam with the same duration and less lift. As Hughes cams get larger they narrow up the LSA which is not always good. In a street car with quite a bit of duration a wider lsa will give it better street manners and give you more rpms. It does not always translate into hp and e.t. but if it's a car thats a driver don't forget narrow lsa cams mean more overlap and a rowdy idle, along w a narrower power band and detonation because the intake valve is closing sooner.

With you current set up 2" headers might be slower then 1 7/8??? or no difference.
until it's uncorked.

 

[threewood]

If you drop the exhaust at the track, make sure you run some collector extensions, around 18" I have seen them worth 50 ft/lb in the midrange.
Dropping the exhaust is a good way to find out if the 2 1/2 is too small. (Three inch should be enough, tho I'm famous for overkill- I have run 2" headers and 3 1/2 exhaust on a N/A small block, lol)

18" collectors at 3" would be cheap and give me somewhere to put the o2 bung. This might be my first step. Thanks.

Your et is slow for your mph. Do you have regular street tires or are they stickies?

Street slicks, M/T ET's And I was dealing with wheel spin during my last outing as the 50' wasn't impressive.

For sure your combo would like a larger cam, but your exhaust could be a bottleneck. Do you have a x pipe?
When picking a cam...remember the cams lift does not determine the power band only duration. 238/242 in a solid isn't big in a 440 and I would not expect it to like 6000. In a hydraulic that is only comparable to around 230/234. Hughes cams have aggressive profiles that give them lots of lift but that doesn't help them rev more then a cam with the same duration and less lift. As Hughes cams get larger they narrow up the LSA which is not always good. In a street car with quite a bit of duration a wider lsa will give it better street manners and give you more rpms.

H pipe crossover. What is a good cam to step up to from what I have. Solid tappet. And I am looking specifically at longer duration more so than lift as I don't want to get into a predicament with valve/ piston interference.

 

[33 IMP]

Duration has more influence on valve to piston clearance than lift.
Looking at pics of a kb237, you shouldn't have any problems with p/v. Looks like very generous valve reliefs.
As I said, my .557 purple solid has about the same lift as yours, but 252/252 at .050 (according to Victory) on a 110 lobe sep. Unfortunately, prices on the purple cams has gone nuts. If I were buying a new solid cam right now, I'd look at Lunati.

 

[68-500]

Need longer duration cam. That one is more suited to 383 than a 440 if you ask me.

 

[threewood]

For sure your combo would like a larger cam, but your exhaust could be a bottleneck. Do you have a x pipe?
When picking a cam...remember the cams lift does not determine the power band only duration. 238/242 in a solid isn't big in a 440 and I would not expect it to like 6000. In a hydraulic that is only comparable to around 230/234. Hughes cams have aggressive profiles that give them lots of lift but that doesn't help them rev more then a cam with the same duration and less lift. As Hughes cams get larger they narrow up the LSA which is not always good. In a street car with quite a bit of duration a wider lsa will give it better street manners and give you more rpms. It does not always translate into hp and e.t. but if it's a car thats a driver don't forget narrow lsa cams mean more overlap and a rowdy idle, along w a narrower power band and detonation because the intake valve is closing sooner.

With you current set up 2" headers might be slower then 1 7/8??? or no difference.
until it's uncorked.

What would you consider too narrow of a LSA? My current cam has an LSA of 110*. The Hughes cam I'm looking at in my original post has a LSA of 108* but a duration of 8* more at .050"

They are out of stock so no rush. This is the Lunati Voodoo I'm looking at as well.

 

[threewood]

And this Crower...

 

[fourgearsavoy]

That Crower looks a lot like a Comp XTQ series cam I had in my Savoy. I really liked that cam with tons of low end and revved quickly. Worked really well with a stick car.

Gus

 

[33 IMP]

That Crower looks a lot like a Comp XTQ series cam I had in my Savoy. I really liked that cam with tons of low end and revved quickly. Worked really well with a stick car.

Gus

I think it looks a lot like my purple shaft .557. It works good in my 906 head 440, with a 4500 stall and 3.91s. I'm a bit lighter than a 69 runner, though.
As for a lobe sep, I have a cam dynamics roller on 104 that I wanted to use...... but the rods hit it. I had to get reduced base circle cam. Personally..... I'd rather have a 106 than a 110/112.

 

[33 IMP]

I like both the crower and the lunati. The lunati looks very fast rate (not much duration spread between adv.and .050). For durability, i think I might lean toward the crower.

 

[Curiousyellow71]

Nowadays... I would call to see either cams eta before you made plans. For those crower and lunati cams I pretty much have the same thoughts as 33 imp. But for a driver my preference is a wider Lsa like 110 or 112., and I likely wouldn't run any of the 3 cams your considering over one from Bullet. Have you considered getting a custom grind? It sounds like you are waiting for it to be ground either way? Tim Goolsby at Bullet is a excellent tech and has great expertise IF you can get him on the line. We have done a bunch of Ultradynes and Bullet grinds with Tim. I have yet to be disappointed.

Answering your Lsa question...how narrow/wide really depends on what your look for? It is a balance of drivabilty and changing the performance. Wider lsa spreads spreads the power out more (higher rpm hp), smoother idle, less sensitive to gas quality, and better economy(street car). Narrower has a more defined power band(but falls off more at top end), rougher idle, more bottom end(u need to hook it up to use it in 1st!), more overlap means watery eyes less economy(race car). Narrower with the right set up can be quicker. Narrower on the street driving...can stink. Usually fuel injection also likes wider. But either I suppose can be tuned.
Lsa of 110 is ok, but it is as narrow as I would want to go for what your doing (street car that occasionally sees the track) and I would not be surprised you actually liked the way it would run (driving) better at 112. We have had roller and flat tappets cams with a ICL from 102 to 114. Cams all have trade offs. You give up something to run 106, and you give up something to run on 114. 110 is... In the middle.

 

[33 IMP]

Agree with Curious. The 104 i wanted to use was for a 95% race car that was very light, with a powerglide and lots of tire. A wide torque band to get it moving was what I had in mind.
There have been dyno tests done by engine masters of various lobe seps on the same cam grind.

 

[threewood]

Nowadays... I would call to see either cams eta before you made plans. For those crower and lunati cams I pretty much have the same thoughts as 33 imp. But for a driver my preference is a wider Lsa like 110 or 112., and I likely wouldn't run any of the 3 cams your considering over one from Bullet. Have you considered getting a custom grind? It sounds like you are waiting for it to be ground either way? TIm Goolsby at Bullet is a excellent tech and has great expertise IF you can get him on the line. We have done a bunch of Ultradynes and Bullet grinds with Tim. I have yet to be disappointed.

Answering your Lsa question...how narrow/wide really depends on what your look for? It is a balance of drivabilty and changing the performance. Wider lsa spreads spreads the power out more (higher rpm hp), smoother idle, less sensitive to gas quality, and better economy(street car). Narrower has a more defined power band(but falls off more at top end), rougher idle, more bottom end(u need to hook it up to use it in 1st!), more overlap means watery eyes less economy(race car). Narrower with the right set up can be quicker. Narrower on the street driving...can stink. Usually fuel injection also likes wider. But either I suppose can be tuned.
Lsa of 110 is ok, but it is as narrow as I would want to go for what your doing (street car that occasionally sees the track) and I would not be surprised you actually liked the way it would run (driving) better at 112. We have had roller and flat tappets cams with a ICL from 102 to 114. Cams all have trade offs. You give up something to run 106, and you give up something to run on 114. 110 is... In the middle.

Never heard of Bullet. I hadn't considered a custom grind. I'm not a serious racer and think a production cam would do the trick. Lunati and Crower are in stock so no wait. I'm not in a hurry though and want to ponder the choices. I do want to call both companies and see what they say. Thanks for the input. I'll call and get input from Bullet and see what they have too.

 

[Geoff 2]

I think the cam you have chosen will work well for you. Bear in mind that the HSD intake was originally listed as a 0-5500 rpm power band. Now I see that it has magically increased to 6000...

 

[70ChargerRT]

Have you ever had the motor tuned by a professional on a laptop? My set up is.
440 40 over
Complete Roller Motor
Zero and Square Decked
JE Forged Pistons
10.71 final comp.
Comp HR 236/242 @ 110 544 lift
1.6 HS Rockers
Howard’s Roller Lifters
240 Trick Flo Heads
Holley SD intake
Sniper X-Flo In- Tank
Complete Hyperspark set up
1 7/8 TTi Headers 3” exhaust
3.91 gear 6-speed
I had FASTMAN to remote tune my car and holy crap what a difference. We almost got completely done when I ran in to a RFi issue which was my fault. I have it fixed it now and with my tune about 90% completed it’s a totally different car altogether. I can’t believe how responsive and how quick it hits. You may also need to step up to a 3.91 gear.