67 Satellite 383 refresh - questions/advice

[copper67sat]

I apologize in advance for the length of this initial post, but I want to provide a summary of the background and starting point for this refresh.

I recently pulled the engine and transmission out of my 1967 Plymouth Satellite for inspection, cleanup and to address some budding issues. I hope some of the resident experts will follow along and chime in as I’m sure I will have questions and be seeking advice. I have a busy day job and other pressing needs around the house/property so my progress may be slow at times, but hopefully you’ll stick with me as I go through it.

This is the original drivetrain to the car which is the high performance “H” code 383 4 bbl, dual exhaust setup backed up by a 727 and a 742 case 3.23 SG. The factory spec for the engine is 10:1 CR, but those specs are known to be “optimistic”. I rebuilt the engine in 1990 while also restoring the car and it has been in the car running since 1992. I drove it from W. Palm Beach, FL to Indy and back for the Mopar Nats in 1993 and 1995 without any issues. Through most of the ‘90’s I also drove it around to car shows in Orlando, Melbourne and Ft. Lauderdale and we still make an annual trek to Daytona Beach. On these trips, it’s not uncommon for me to cruise with traffic on I-95 at around 80 mph, ~3700 RPM without concern. Oil pressure and coolant temp run very steady.

I’m not a trained mechanic, but a decent hack and the FSM was my guide for rebuild. There are many things I have learned since, mostly on this forum, so mistakes were made and lessons learned, but the engine has run decently for over 30 years and 30+k miles. I don’t have a good point of reference for the power level as this has been the only big block car I’ve really driven. My motivation for going through it again is to address what I think (hope?) are minor issues that have cropped in the last few years, clean it up again and do a better job of documenting the setup than I did the first time.

Here is where it’s at after the 90’s rebuild and some later upgrades.

• Block bored 0.030” over
• Original forged crank ground 0.010”/0.010” on the journals
• Original rods with ends resized
• New +.030 pistons – believed to be Silvolites, but I can no longer find the parts list from the machine shop.
• Melling high volume oil pump
• Double roller timing set
• Cam is Comp Cams 268H-10 grind with 0.454” lift degreed at the recommended 106 intake center line
• Valve springs are the CC recommended CC 926 springs with damper springs
• Rocker arms and shafts are original
• Heads are the original 516 castings milled 0.010” with 1.60” hardened exhaust valve seats installed – wish I had known then that these could be opened up to 1.74” exhaust
• Composition head gasket was used in place of the original steel shim gasket
• Heads were not cc’d nor did I think/know to measure the piston to deck distance so CR is unknown, but cylinder pressures were generally in the 145-150 psi range which is in spec for this engine.
• Bronze valve guides were installed and a 3-angle valve job was performed
• Intake is the original cast iron 4-bbl unit
• 68-69 HP manifolds replaced the original log manifolds
• An H-pipe was added to the dual exhaust with hemi mufflers and GTX tips out back
• The original Carter AFB 4299S was replaced in the mid 90’s with a new 625CFM Carter AFB with electric choke topped by the original dual snorkel air cleaner
• I added a Pertronix II kit to replace the points in the mid 2000’s
• The original 727 was rebuilt by a local builder to factory specs while I did the engine. A few years later I added a shift kit and TCI Saturday Night Special 1,600-2,000 Stall Torque Converter to help wake up the bottom end
• Other relevant options are PS, Bendix 4-piston disc brakes and A/C (non-functioning)

Not long after I had the car running/driving I had an issue with the intake valves sticking in the guides which led to a bent pushrod on #5 Intake, a small divot in the piston top from the contact and a head gasket leak between #3 & #5. I pulled the heads and disassembled them to find bronze smeared on the intake valve stems. Apparently, the machinist didn’t set the clearance correctly. He fixed his mistake. I replaced the bent pushrod and head gasket and got it back on the road with no obvious ill effects except I noticed that #5 cylinder pressure was lower than the others, but within the 25 psi variation spec’d in the FSM.

A few years later it overheated on the way home from work due to a stuck thermostat. Unfortunately, I wasn’t watching the gauges and didn’t know anything was wrong until it blew the lower radiator hose off and dumped all the coolant. I limped it along another mile or two until I got into civilization so I could find a phone to call for a tow. It was barely running when I pulled off. I reattached the radiator hose and got some help at a nearby house to refill it with water. It would turn over easily, but would not fire. I started worrying I had hurt it and got it towed home. I later found that the heat/steam under the hood had killed the coil. Replaced that and it was back running without any noticeable issues.

Fast forward to the 2020’s. Life is busier and I don’t drive it as often, especially during the hot, rainy S. FL summers. Two summers ago I started noticing what sounded like a lifter tick after the car sat for several months. It would go away once I got it out on the road and opened it up but would return again if I let it sit without starting for a few months. This was the first issue I noticed. More recently, I started seeing some oil smoke in the exhaust, particularly on startup. Finally, the engine paint is getting faded and starting to flake off the lower sides of the block. I finally decided to pull it out and start going through it to address these issues and anything else I might find.

I will detail my inspections and observations in the following posts.

 

[copper67sat]

I wanted to do some basic inspections and tests before getting too far so I ran a compression test before pulling the engine. Below are the results with engine warm, all plugs removed, and carb wired open.

1: 154 2: 140
3: 141 4: 140
5: 130 6: 149
7: 149 8: 150

FSM says it should be 130 – 165 psi with a max variation of 25 psi between cylinders so it’s technically within spec, but just barely. Cylinder 5 has been an outlier and somewhat suspect for a while. Need to dig deeper to figure out why.

Here are some pictures of the plugs. These have been in for about 10 years but were last checked, cleaned and regapped in late '23. I'm not great at reading them, but didn't see anything too alarming. Interested to know what the experts think so far.

 

[copper67sat]

Next, I ran a cylinder leak down test, but this was done after the engine was out, so it was cold. I ran the test several times on each cylinder to make sure I was getting consistent results. Results below are the supply pressure followed by the cylinder pressure. These coincide with the compression results for the most part, that is the lower compression cylinders generally have more leakage. The "good" cylinders show about 2% leakage while the "bad" cylinders are as high as about 10%. Not sure what would be typical.

1: 90 87 2: 90 86
3: 90 81 4: 90 82
5: 90 82 6: 90 85
7: 90 88 8: 90 85

I repeated the test after removing the intake (more on that later) and exhaust manifolds to help determine where the cylinders were leaking. The results repeated, but now I could hear and feel #3 & #5 leaking out the exhaust ports. Nothing obvious on #4 even though it’s results were similar to #3 & #5.

 

[copper67sat]

A couple of observations after pulling the intake and valve covers.

• The insulation pad between the intake and valley pan was in rough shape. I made this one to replicate the original that I removed during the initial rebuild. It was fiberglass insulation wrapped in heavy duty aluminum foil. It was soaked with oil and the foil had corroded badly.

• There was a small corrosion hole in the valley pan under the insulation pad. Thankfully, there were no obvious signs of water intrusion into the engine likely because I rarely drive this car in the rain, and I am not in the habit of hosing down the engine.

• The valley pan and heads were wet with oil around the intake ports and the back sides of the intake valves appear to be coked with burnt oil. Thinking this is the most likely source for the oil smoke I have been seeing. There haven’t been any significant indication of oil usage. I change oil and filter annually despite typically driving less than 700 miles annually and it has a few small drips, but dipstick always showed full.

• Lifter valley, heads and valve covers all look really clean. No deposits or gunk that I can see.

• No initial indications of valve seal degradation. When I rebuilt the engine previously, I found pieces of the seals all over inside the heads, in the oil pan and in the oil pickup tube and half expected to see something similar this time. I haven’t opened up the bottom end or pulled the valve springs yet so I may see some when I get that far.

 

[pnora]

Check the cam and lifters. If ok you might consider re-ringing it and have the heads gone through along with new valve seals.

 

[PurpleBeeper]

I agree with pnora. Maybe take a very close look at how the market brake seals and “possibly” mill it so it seals better to the heads. You may have been sucking oil into your legs brake ports from the valley area. Besides that, I’m not sure why you are rebuilding it???

 

[AR67GTX]

Check the cam and lifters. If ok you might consider re-ringing it and have the heads gone through along with new valve seals.

This, a light re-honing and new and quality gaskets/bearings and with a careful inspection of the oil pump, oil passages, and reassembly and it will probably outlive most of us. Good luck.

 

[oldbee]

Only thing I could add would be to go back to steel shim hd.gasket to get back a tad of compression.
P.s.- never ran a high volume oil pump myself.

 

[copper67sat]

I agree with pnora. Maybe take a very close look at how the market brake seals and “possibly” mill it so it seals better to the heads. You may have been sucking oil into your legs brake ports from the valley area. Besides that, I’m not sure why you are rebuilding it???

Thank you to you and the others that have chimed in. I do appreciate the input.

I think you are referring to how the intake seals to the heads and I agree that appears to need some closer inspection and/or work. I did set the intake on without the valley pan and I could not see any gaps between the intake and

I wasn't planning on a full rebuild. I mostly wanted to clean it up, regasket and repaint, but there were a few things that seemed to warrant some attention (lifter, or possibly valve, sticking causing a tick; light oil consumption as observed in the exhaust, etc.) and I am finding more as I go (corrosion & hole in valley pan, leaking past exhaust valves on 3 & 5 - what's reasonable or acceptable?, etc.) which is making me glad I'm doing this. Maybe these aren't serious issues, but that's why I'm putting this out there for the brain trust here to help guide me.

I wasn't originally planning to open up the bottom end other than dropping the oil pan for a check, and still may not have to though it seems to be heading that way. I want to fix what needs fixing. Few things I hate more than being broken down on the side of the road, especially in this car.

 

[65CopCar]

Just be aware that it looks like you still have the 67 style pushrods. That style is basically no longer supported and most folks upgrade to the 68 up style lifters and pushrods, myself included when those are changed.

 

[Don Frelier]

Thank you to you and the others that have chimed in. I do appreciate the input.

I need some clarification though. Maybe it's a terminology or voice to text/spellcheck thing, but I don't understand what you mean by "market brake" or "legs brake ports". I think you are referring to how the intake seals to the heads and I agree that appears to need some closer inspection and/or work. I did set the intake on without the valley pan and I could not see any gaps between the intake and heads.

Perhaps my stated intentions were not entirely clear. I wasn't planning on a full rebuild. I mostly wanted to clean it up, regasket and repaint, but there were a few things that seemed to warrant some attention (lifter, or possibly valve, sticking causing a tick; light oil consumption as observed in the exhaust, etc.) and I am finding more as I go (corrosion & hole in valley pan, leaking past exhaust valves on 3 & 5 - what's reasonable or acceptable?, etc.) which is making me glad I'm doing this. Maybe these aren't serious issues, but that's why I'm putting this out there for the brain trust here to help guide me.

I wasn't originally planning to open up the bottom end other than dropping the oil pan for a check, and still may not have to though it seems to be heading that way. I guess I could just put it back together as-is and cross my fingers, but I'd like to fix what needs fixing after 30+ years before I take it on another 400 mile, 80 mph run up to Daytona and back this Fall. Few things I hate more than being broken down on the side of the road, especially in this car.

I would suggest removing the oil gallery plugs at both ends.
Take a gun cleaning kit and some solvent of your choice and clean everything you can get to carefully and blow them out.

Are the valves sunk at all?
If not then I would hand lap them all.
Maybe put a new chain on it and degree the cam.
I'd consider a better intake manifold as well while you've got it apart.
Since your in Florida I would definitely put in a heat crossover blocking valley pan.

From what I've read I highly doubt it needs any bearings but it would be nice to hone it.
But that requires a bit more time and effort.
Keep us posted sounds like your doing a real thorough job.

 

[496 polara]

Maybe have the heads checked over? For what it cost to redo the valve job and throw some 1.74 exhaust valves in there you could likely buy a set of 440 source aluminum heads and paint them engine color. Not suggesting that if you don't want more power but food for thought.

Aluminum intake painted engine color not a bad plan but not necessary. I would remove the insulation and block the heat crossover though.

Lifter tick may come back to bite you but hard to recommend replacement in today's world.

Thinner head gasket for more compression a plus.

Very cool ride and nice to see a well cared for "stock" car.

 

[copper67sat]

I removed the rocker arms, pushrods and lifters. I didn’t see any concerning wear patterns. One lifter has a barely noticeable circle pattern at about ½ diameter. I can't feel anything on the surface. I still need to check them for curvature. I would like to re-use the cam and lifters so hoping everything checks out there.

I pulled the heads and found more unexpected things. First thing I noticed is that the pistons are pretty far down the hole. I assembled this engine with what I thought were replacement 10:1 pistons, but I never measured them because it’s not in the FSM and 25 yr old me didn’t know to do that. Couple that with 0.035” head gasket and the milled heads and I thought the engine would be in the 9 - 9.5 Cr range. I cc’ed a couple of chambers and they came in at 80cc. I didn’t cc them before machining so I don’t know how much the shop took off. Thought it was 0.010”, but maybe not. I measured a few pistons and they are about 0.080 - 0.090 down – clearly not 10:1 pistons. All this puts the motor a good point lower in CR than I thought.

I also noticed a ding in the top of #6 piston from the exhaust valve. I’m thinking this the most likely source of the tick I was hearing after the car sat for a while. Glad it didn't turn into anything worse. #5 also has a ding, but that came from the intake valve way back when. Cylinders look good so far, but I haven't inspected them carefully yet. I don't feel any real ridge at the top or see any scoring - I didn't expect any, but this engine has had some surprises so far.

 

[copper67sat]

I started breaking down the heads to look at the valve seals, valves, seats, etc. I started with #3 exhaust since that valve was leaking noticeably when I ran the leak-down test. I struggled with it for quite a while. I could not get the retainer to go down more than about an 1/8” and would not clear the locks. I tried all the tricks I could find on the internet as well as advice from my ex-mechanic stepdad, but it still would not break free. I finally cut piece of 1x4 lumber to the shape of the chamber so I could sandwich it between the head and my workbench to hold the valves. I clamped the head to the workbench and used as much force as I could muster using the Comp Cams spring tool with a 15/16 box wrench over the handle to get even more leverage. Still wouldn’t break loose. I whacked the tool a few times with a 3lb hammer while I was pulling down as hard as I could and it finally broke free. I could see why it was so hard to remove after pulling the spring off - the top of the valve seal was chewed up and had left a small o-ring type band of material around the valve stem up under the retainer. I had to force that down the stem to get the retainer to drop low enough to get the locks out.

It wasn’t obvious to me why that seal was chewed up until I removed the spring from #5 exhaust and could see that the bronze guide for #3 was pulled up out of the head compared to #5. I proceeded to remove the springs from the rest of the valves and found all of the exhaust valves were very tight in their guides while all the intakes dropped right out. The only exhaust valves that came out with minimal effort were #2 and #4. The rest will not come out without either using a puller from the valve side or drift from the stem side and several of the guides are loose in the heads – most of the travel on #6, of the dinged piston, is the guide in the head and not the valve in the guide. Not sure what's going on with these, how they got like this or for how long they have been this way. I don't recall having any problems removing/installing them when the machinist had to adjust the intake guide clearances. Not sure if he did anything to the exhaust guides a that time.

All of the valve seals were intact, but the intake seals in particular are cracked and splitting. Definitely time to replace them.

Starting to look like these heads will need some serious work if they are even salvageable. I have 3 other sets of heads in the garage – 2 pair of small valve 915’s, one set of which has had some porting done, but look pretty rough and the other pair are complete, untouched originals. The other pair of heads are bare 906’s that a friend gave me recently. All of these heads will need machine work so I am strongly considering going with a set of 440 Source “Stealth” aluminum heads and possibly their aluminum dual plane intake. The 440 Source heads are spec’ed at 80cc so the CR would stay about the same unless I make other changes like milling the heads or block, changing pistons or some combination. I think I want to get CR closer to 9.5. Any thoughts?

440 Source "Stealth" Aluminum Cylinder Heads-store.440source.com
Dual Plane Intake Manifold - SATIN - B Engines

 

[65CopCar]

I removed the rocker arms, pushrods and lifters. I didn’t see any concerning wear patterns. One lifter has a barely noticeable circle pattern at about ½ diameter. I can't feel anything on the surface. I still need to check them for curvature. I would like to re-use the cam and lifters so hoping everything checks out there.

View attachment 1825497

I pulled the heads and found more unexpected things. First thing I noticed is that the pistons are pretty far down the hole. I assembled this engine with what I thought we replacement 10:1 pistons, but I never measured them because it’s not in the FSM and 25 yr old me didn’t know to do that. Couple that with 0.035” head gasket and the milled heads and I thought the engine would be in the 9 - 9.5 Cr range. I cc’ed a couple of chambers on they came in at 80cc. I didn’t cc them machining so I don’t know how much the shop took off. Thought it was 0.010”, but maybe not. I measured a few pistons and they are about 0.080 - 0.090 down – clearly not 10:1 pistons. All this puts the motor a good point lower in CR than I thought.

I also noticed a ding in the top of #6 piston from the exhaust valve. I’m thinking this the most likely source of the tick I was hearing after the car sat for a while. Glad it didn't turn into anything worse. #5 also has a ding, but that came from the intake valve way back when. Cylinders look good so far, but I haven't inspected them carefully yet. I don't feel any real ridge at the top or see any scoring - I didn't expect any, but this engine has had some surprises so far.

View attachment 1825485

Went through the exact same thing on my 67 383. Milled the heads quite a bit and got the CR up to 8.9:1. Car runs pretty good. Ran 14.3 with bad 60 foots at over 4000lbs. Might get a 13 second run if all the stars align.

 

[DanielSlocum]

Your guides were clearly too tight causing the valves to stick in the guides. Bronze guides can be run a bit tighter than iron but i wouldnt want any less than .002 clearance myself.
Non HP pistons were normally .070-.080 in the hole, and advertised compression ratios were usually at least .5 lower than they actually measured.
If you go with aluminum heads,you could easily get away with 10.5 on pump premium. If you dont mind the not stock look, you could get the Edelbrock heads with the 75 cc chambers. 2.14/1.81 valves will come very close to your 383 cylinder bores but will just barely clear i believe.
Milling heads can be a pain as intake manifold fit,valley pan fit,and pushrod length are all effected to some degree.
Good luck.

 

[copper67sat]

Your guides were clearly too tight causing the valves to stick in the guides.

Yeah, just not sure why the clearances seemingly closed up. I pulled these valves out once before, not long after the machine work was done 30+ yrs ago, and am pretty sure they weren't this tight or I would have done something about it.

I also wonder how long this has been going on and if it's been getting worse. Kind of surprised, and glad, that this hasn't led to bigger problems so far.

 

[Jerry Hall]

I started breaking down the heads to look at the valve seals, valves, seats, etc. I started with #3 exhaust since that valve was leaking noticeably when I ran the leak-down test. I struggled with it for quite a while. I could not get the retainer to go down more than about an 1/8” and would not clear the locks. I tried all the tricks I could find on the internet as well as advice from my ex-mechanic stepdad, but it still would not break free. I finally cut piece of 1x4 lumber to the shape of the chamber so I could sandwich it between the head and my workbench to hold the valves. I clamped the head to the workbench and used as much force as I could muster using the Comp Cams spring tool with a 15/16 box wrench over the handle to get even more leverage. Still wouldn’t break loose. I whacked the tool a few times with a 3lb hammer while I was pulling down as hard as I could and it finally broke free. I could see why it was so hard to remove after pulling the spring off - the top of the valve seal was chewed up and had left a small o-ring type band of material around the valve stem up under the retainer. I had to force that down the stem to get the retainer to drop low enough to get the locks out.

View attachment 1825486

View attachment 1825492

View attachment 1825488

It wasn’t obvious to me why that seal was chewed up until I removed the spring from #5 exhaust and could see that the bronze guide for #3 was pulled up out of the head compared to #5. I proceeded to remove the springs from the rest of the valves and found all of the exhaust valves were very tight in their guides while all the intakes dropped right out. The only exhaust valves that came out with minimal effort were #2 and #4. The rest will not come out without either using a puller from the valve side or drift from the stem side and several of the guides are loose in the heads – most of the travel on #6, of the dinged piston, is the guide in the head and not the valve in the guide. Not sure what's going on with these, how they got like this or for how long they have been this way. I don't recall having any problems removing/installing them when the machinist had to adjust the intake guide clearances. Not sure if he did anything to the exhaust guides a that time.

View attachment 1825490

All of the valve seals were intact, but the intake seals in particular are cracked and splitting. Definitely time to replace them.

Starting to look like these heads will need some serious work if they are even salvageable. I have 3 other sets of heads in the garage – 2 pair of small valve 915’s, one set of which has had some porting done, but look pretty rough and the other pair are complete, untouched originals. The other pair of heads are bare 906’s that a friend gave me recently. All of these heads will need machine work so I am strongly considering going with a set of 440 Source “Stealth” aluminum heads and possibly their aluminum dual plane intake. The 440 Source heads are spec’ed at 80cc so the CR would stay about the same unless I make other changes like milling the heads or block, changing pistons or some combination. I think I want to get CR closer to 9.5. Any thoughts?

440 Source "Stealth" Aluminum Cylinder Heads-store.440source.com
Dual Plane Intake Manifold - SATIN - B Engines

With your pistons that far in the hole, you need a steel shim head gaskets and some serious head work. You can't mill it to far as things begin to not fit without other machine work. The 383 4bbl 325 hp engine I recently built went back standard bore with all original pistons that were 16 thousandths in the hole. So I figure your actual compression was about 8.5 with all you have indicated. The changes i made were going to 1.74 exhaust valves and a considerable bump in the cam, but kept it under 500 lift.

 

[copper67sat]

Thanks Jerry. I've been following your build.

I cleaned up the top of the pistons and block to take measurements of the piston to deck height. They are 0.090" on average +/- a couple of thousandandths. So I calculate 8.27 CR. Not what I thought I had or wanted.

Dropped the oil pan and I can see a small amount of glitter in the oil. Camera seems to show more than my eyes see. I plan to swish a magnet around in it and see what it picks up. I also plan to carefully cut open the oil filter and have a look there as well.

Timing set still looks tight and block is clean inside.

Need to spend some time cleaning up my workspace so I can pull the crank and pistons out for a look. I want to measure the compression height on these pistons. Been looking at a few options to replace them like the Speed-Pro L2315NF30 so I can get them higher in the hole, but need to know what I'm starting with. This will be important if I end up going with aluminum heads since those need a composite gasket.

 

[Jerry Hall]

Thanks Jerry. I've been following your build.

I cleaned up the top of the pistons and block to take measurements of the piston to deck height. They are 0.090" on average +/- a couple of thousandandths. So I calculate 8.27 CR. Not what I thought I had or wanted.

Dropped the oil pan and I can see a small amount of glitter in the oil. Camera seems to show more than my eyes see. I plan to swish a magnet around in it and see what it picks up. I also plan to carefully cut open the oil filter and have a look there as well.

Timing set still looks tight and block is clean inside.
View attachment 1829940

Need to spend some time cleaning up my workspace so I can pull the crank and pistons out for a look. I want to measure the compression height on these pistons. Been looking at a few options to replace them like the Speed-Pro L2315NF30 so I can get them higher in the hole, but need to know what I'm starting with. This will be important if I end up going with aluminum heads since those need a composite gasket.

My build is in paint jail at present. Self imposed, because I fired the guy that did much of the work, and am having trouble finding a competent person to finish up.
All sub-assemblys are mostly done. Once it's blocked and another gallon of clear applied, I will start assembly. The only major thing left is the cleaning, and going through the rear axle.
I know aluminum heads might be a good option for you, but I'm old school and stick with the Mopar provided iron ones. Either way bigger exhaust valves, I would recommend. From what you indicated, you have some 915’s that would fill the bill. Your #1 problem is the pistons and you are going in the right direction there.
I was lucky in that my engine didn't need bored, but I did have a cracked skirt on one piston. The luck was that I located a NOS piston for 50 bucks.