440 modified looking to push as much horse as i can out of it

[67chagerboy]

As i said in the title of the thread i got a 440 modified motor in my 67 charger im looking to get as much horse out of it as i can. That being said if i can i want to twin turbo and supercharge it with out coming out of the hood. Has any one done this before and have a set up they could show me and give advice along with it? Also any body else have any more suggestions on how to make this even more of an animal? The charger is going to be a tribute car to our armed forces more specifically designed towards my mos, i was infantry so im gearing it more towards army and marine infantry (units gear etc in the paint job) so it needs the power under the hood to further symbolize our military power in my mind. This is my first project car but certaintly wont be my last and as far as car value is concerned im not concerned with resale value this car will never be sold because its my first charger lol. So i definitely appreciate all suggestions yall can pass my way

 

[Meep-Meep]

Twin turbo, intercooled and EFI. Also better use a Callies crank, good rods and aftermarket cross bolt main caps from ProGram.

 

[Photon440]

Hard block it.

 

[67chagerboy]

Twin turbo, intercooled and EFI. Also better use a Callies crank, good rods and aftermarket cross bolt main caps from ProGram.

would there be enough room in the bay to do twin turbo? and if so what size/brand turbos should i use? im very much new to building a car so im trying to absorb as much info as i can to make sure i do it right and achieve my horsepower goals

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Hard block it.

what does "hard block it" mean photon? would you mind dumbing that down for me? lol

 

[Ron Ward]

Google Hardblok. It's a product. It'll help.

edit:

Sorry for my short answer. It's obvious you are quite new at this. My suggestion would be to find someone locally who you trust who has dealt with turbocharging and the associated parts and tuning required to support a turbocharged powerplant. Keep in mind, you can make several hundred horsepower with turbos. The entire car (driveline, chassis, etc.) will require upgrades to support the increased power and resulting increased heat. Finding that local person who can show you, "hands on", how it all ties together will be a huge help towards you achieving your goal.

 

[HYRDGOON]

Here's a thread to follow along that will be going the twin turbo route http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/mopar...-Hemi-Superbird-Restoration-errr-scratch-that

And you also mentioned "supercharger" and "under the hood" so if you would consider a centrifugal supercharger (Like Procharger) there's a discussion here where a few of us are doing it that would help you with your questions http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showthread.php?79666-Procharged-440


If you really want to get peak horsepower out of your "modified" (modified how??) 440 the best way isn't just to throw power adders on it there are a LOT of other things in the mix to learn about (as I am currently learning about as well) If you want to milk this engine for everything it's worth it would need to be built with boost in mind

 

[Photon440]

would there be enough room in the bay to do twin turbo? and if so what size/brand turbos should i use? im very much new to building a car so im trying to absorb as much info as i can to make sure i do it right and achieve my horsepower goals

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what does "hard block it" mean photon? would you mind dumbing that down for me? lol

It's a filler that goes into your engine's water passages, surrounding and strengthening the cylinder wall. RB engines are usually good for 600 horsepower, but after that you may be lucky or you may have split walls. Hardblok in the bottom half of the block adds strength but still allows for water circulation in the upper part to carry away heat.

http://www.hardblok.com/index.html

My advice would be to sonic check and select the thickest walls you can find and keep overbores to a minimum to keep the strength in place.

 

[Meep-Meep]

would there be enough room in the bay to do twin turbo? and if so what size/brand turbos should i use? im very much new to building a car so im trying to absorb as much info as i can to make sure i do it right and achieve my horsepower goals

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what does "hard block it" mean photon? would you mind dumbing that down for me? lol

It would be tight with twin turbos but you can probably get by with one. As for what type I don't know but lots of info on the net regarding similar cube builds with a turbo. Cam selection needs to be right also. Wide LSA is typical for turbo applications.

 

[Cranky]

Stock blocks are limited to how much horsepower it can take before it starts falling apart. How much do you want to make and how much money do you have to spend? That's the first couple of questions that need to be asked....

 

[67chagerboy]

yeah ron this is very much my first project lol my uncle is going to be helping me with the build as he has done many over the years the only thing he hasnt messed with is supercharging but he has dealt with turbos many times. im on here trying to get more advice and direction so i can learn through as many people as i can possibly learn from and gain more ideas on how to set my plans into action as well as current set ups any one else might already be running you know?

Google Hardblok. It's a product. It'll help.

edit:

Sorry for my short answer. It's obvious you are quite new at this. My suggestion would be to find someone locally who you trust who has dealt with turbocharging and the associated parts and tuning required to support a turbocharged powerplant. Keep in mind, you can make several hundred horsepower with turbos. The entire car (driveline, chassis, etc.) will require upgrades to support the increased power and resulting increased heat. Finding that local person who can show you, "hands on", how it all ties together will be a huge help towards you achieving your goal.

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ok thanks i appreciate it!

It's a filler that goes into your engine's water passages, surrounding and strengthening the cylinder wall. RB engines are usually good for 600 horsepower, but after that you may be lucky or you may have split walls. Hardblok in the bottom half of the block adds strength but still allows for water circulation in the upper part to carry away heat.

http://www.hardblok.com/index.html

My advice would be to sonic check and select the thickest walls you can find and keep overbores to a minimum to keep the strength in place.

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Stock blocks are limited to how much horsepower it can take before it starts falling apart. How much do you want to make and how much money do you have to spend? That's the first couple of questions that need to be asked....

my plan of action is to figure out the cost of the right setup write it up and then attack it piece by piece until i stock pile everything written up and then do the install all at once. money wise i dont really care how much it costs to a degree, i mean if its gunna cost me more than 15k then ill probably say screw it and just buy a bigger crate block to reach my goal, which is 550-600hp

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ok 1st lets get after the modified thing, from how it was explained to me there are 3 440 set ups, the standard stock 440, the 440 6 pack and the modified 440 which seems to be the hp model that released in 70 or 71 which fluctuated from 390-425 horse power.

supercharger/twin turbo- yeah i think thats what i was looking for, centrifugal because i want it to remain street legal so my only other option would be to lower the 440 in order to get the blower less than 4 inches showing through the hood which would also force me to seek out a new hood because i refuse to cut through my classic solid steel hood lol. so thank you for directing me that way and also for providing me the two links to the threads for what im trying to do.

everything else- yeah thats why i reached out lol i literally have no idea what im doing yet and im trying to learn as much as i can before i get going and potentially abolish my dinosaur lol

Here's a thread to follow along that will be going the twin turbo route http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/mopar...-Hemi-Superbird-Restoration-errr-scratch-that

And you also mentioned "supercharger" and "under the hood" so if you would consider a centrifugal supercharger (Like Procharger) there's a discussion here where a few of us are doing it that would help you with your questions http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showthread.php?79666-Procharged-440


If you really want to get peak horsepower out of your "modified" (modified how??) 440 the best way isn't just to throw power adders on it there are a LOT of other things in the mix to learn about (as I am currently learning about as well) If you want to milk this engine for everything it's worth it would need to be built with boost in mind

 

[mentor70]

you could do a rear mount under chassis turbo kit too.

http://www.turbokits.com/Pontiac/GTO/Turbo_Kits/STS_Rear_Mount_Turbo_Kit/600/

but i would just do a big 500 ci, and NOS, like a 200 shot

 

[MT_Mopar]

You can make 550-600+ naturally aspirated on a 15K budget fairly easily with some of the best parts available.

Check this out: http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/mopar...75682-IQ52-s-BigBlock-Lineup&highlight=Lineup

 

[dieseldazzle]

Its a snowball effect. You can just put a small plate kit on your existing good healthy mild 440 and do the same as a single turbo in the confines of stock block and heads yet tax the limits of your trans, converter, axles etc once you put a good tire on it. If it is a well sorted, steers straight, stops straight and good, no overheating etc drive it like that. Once you are bored then start playing with plate kits till you hurt something or out grow it.

 

[Photon440]

yeah ron this is very much my first project lol my uncle is going to be helping me with the build as he has done many over the years the only thing he hasnt messed with is supercharging but he has dealt with turbos many times. im on here trying to get more advice and direction so i can learn through as many people as i can possibly learn from and gain more ideas on how to set my plans into action as well as current set ups any one else might already be running you know?



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ok thanks i appreciate it!



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my plan of action is to figure out the cost of the right setup write it up and then attack it piece by piece until i stock pile everything written up and then do the install all at once. money wise i dont really care how much it costs to a degree, i mean if its gunna cost me more than 15k then ill probably say screw it and just buy a bigger crate block to reach my goal, which is 550-600hp

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ok 1st lets get after the modified thing, from how it was explained to me there are 3 440 set ups, the standard stock 440, the 440 6 pack and the modified 440 which seems to be the hp model that released in 70 or 71 which fluctuated from 390-425 horse power.

supercharger/twin turbo- yeah i think thats what i was looking for, centrifugal because i want it to remain street legal so my only other option would be to lower the 440 in order to get the blower less than 4 inches showing through the hood which would also force me to seek out a new hood because i refuse to cut through my classic solid steel hood lol. so thank you for directing me that way and also for providing me the two links to the threads for what im trying to do.

everything else- yeah thats why i reached out lol i literally have no idea what im doing yet and im trying to learn as much as i can before i get going and potentially abolish my dinosaur lol

A couple of things pop out with your post here. First of all, if your goal is 600 hp, you aren't going too radical. You could easily do it without turbos. With a turbo however, you'd have a less radical sounding engine and get your power without revving as high. mentor70 mentioned rear mount, there goes all your under-hood clearance issues, and you'll have your power.

If you do want the looks of the power and looks of a top blower, there's another option besides lowering the engine like you mentioned. Forget the 440 block and use a low deck 400 block instead, you can still get over 500 inches with the right crank plus it's a little lower in the engine bay. Have you considered a larger engine? There's a lot of interesting stuff to read right here: http://www.440source.com/strokerkits.htm

 

[IQ52]

We go over this time and again. With a 400 or 440 block stroker, if one doesn't care a great deal about idle quality, a person can get 700 HP on pump gas for around $15,000. Maintaining idle quality for a street car, a 500" stroker will go 650 HP. We do it on a regular basis.

A normally aspirated 451 stroker can go 750+ HP on 91 octane.

 

[67chagerboy]

those are some great leads, in the mean time what can i do with out making it a stroker motor, i think if i was gunna go that route i would just purchase a crate motor. for now im sticking with the 440 because i already have it, i will how ever do any thing i can to it that wont require machine work (if anything is able to be done) also i want to stay away from nos i dont really want to take the chance of blowing my motor or myself up due to my inexperience using it lol. that rear end turbo looks like a cool idea and will be a solid consideration, will that be a big enough turbo for this monster or will i have to do the turbo upgrade?

 

[Mr.SpeedFreak]

Man, you're going way overkill on parts/build if you're only looking for 550-600 horsepower haha. That's almost too low of a power goal for twin turbo's, because if they were sized correctly even for "low boost" application and peforming efficiently, you should be a bit over that horsepower goal even on a stock displacement 440. Like has been mentioned, that power goal can be reached just with a well-built naturally aspirated stroker.

But if you want boost just for the fun of driving a boosted car, I don't blame you haha. It's also arguably the best way to build power (more torque created throughout the power stroke, less stress on the rotating assembly relative to engines relying on stroke or rpm). As mentioned already, you will have to build your engine with boost specifically in mind. It's a bit much to get into right now, but basically slightly lower compression depending on boost level, wider lobe separation angle (112-114 is usually what people go with) on the cam, as well as watching timing advance under boost to avoid detonation. Compression, timing, air charge temp, and air/fuel mixture are the biggest things to look at to keep a boosted engine in one piece. Trying to get all the major basics I can think of offhand, but I'd highly recommend buying and reading the book Maximum Boost if you plan on going this route. Mostly info on turbo applications, but a lot of it could apply to supercharged as well.

Like Goon mentioned, centrifugal superchargers (Procharger, Vortech, Paxton) are a great option, would allow you to keep everything under the stock hood, and would be a bit simpler in terms of installation than turbo's. We're both in the process of putting them on our engines, and have a thread going on here specifically about them you could give a read through. A lot of good info being shared on there thanks to everyone's research and the helpful input of some members on here already running them. And here's a preview into the kind of power per boost levels you can expect from a fairly mild 440:

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/mopp-0604-440-mopar-engine-build/

Hope this helps you out

 

[dieseldazzle]

those are some great leads, in the mean time what can i do with out making it a stroker motor, i think if i was gunna go that route i would just purchase a crate motor. for now im sticking with the 440 because i already have it, i will how ever do any thing i can to it that wont require machine work (if anything is able to be done) also i want to stay away from nos i dont really want to take the chance of blowing my motor or myself up due to my inexperience using it lol. that rear end turbo looks like a cool idea and will be a solid consideration, will that be a big enough turbo for this monster or will i have to do the turbo upgrade?

Turbo car is 10 x harder to tune than a nitrous car my friend. Mild nitrous kit is so easy to learn. Nitrous is an oxidizer...........

 

[67chagerboy]

Dude im stoked you broke it down barney style for me! lol my uncle is the car guy i asked him to take me under his wing but make me learn as much as i can before i present something to him and what not and you not only gave me things to keep in mind when going with boost but also a resource to learn more about them and thats a big part of what i was looking for lol thank you for that. now the big question is does anybody already have a twin setup on their 440? something that they would be willing to send me a picture of with their parts list so i can get more of a gauge on it on the financial aspect?

as for the centrifugal superchargers that very well might be the better option for me so i definitely appreciate you and goon both weighing in and offering that idea up to me as well. my ultimate goal, which now sounds like my goals didnt really line up to well lol was to have a supercharger that stayed under the hood as well as twin turbos and i wanted to have my uncle tune em in some sort of way where they would be balanced out but leaning just a bit more towards acceleration rather than top end thinking in my head that the 440 would have plenty of balls down the line anyways might as well just work on gettin it off the line. i have talked to him about alot of what every one has given me though so far in the sense of just building up the engine with out any sort of boost. the only thing im trying to do is stay away from machine work though simply because how its been explained to me financially it wouldnt make sense, i could just turn around and take the money i wouldve spent to make it a 505 stroker and just buy a bigger crate motor or something along those lines and just keep the 440. but when we get the engine running hopefully either this weekend or next weekend we will know what its got going on as far as cams and all that. from whats been said to me and what i saw with my inexperienced amateur eyes i might not even have to worry about that because the motor looks recently rebuilt with performance parts but gettin her fired will tell.

Man, you're going way overkill on parts/build if you're only looking for 550-600 horsepower haha. That's almost too low of a power goal for twin turbo's, because if they were sized correctly even for "low boost" application and peforming efficiently, you should be a bit over that horsepower goal even on a stock displacement 440. Like has been mentioned, that power goal can be reached just with a well-built naturally aspirated stroker.

But if you want boost just for the fun of driving a boosted car, I don't blame you haha. It's also arguably the best way to build power (more torque created throughout the power stroke, less stress on the rotating assembly relative to engines relying on stroke or rpm). As mentioned already, you will have to build your engine with boost specifically in mind. It's a bit much to get into right now, but basically slightly lower compression depending on boost level, wider lobe separation angle (112-114 is usually what people go with) on the cam, as well as watching timing advance under boost to avoid detonation. Compression, timing, air charge temp, and air/fuel mixture are the biggest things to look at to keep a boosted engine in one piece. Trying to get all the major basics I can think of offhand, but I'd highly recommend buying and reading the book Maximum Boost if you plan on going this route. Mostly info on turbo applications, but a lot of it could apply to supercharged as well.

Like Goon mentioned, centrifugal superchargers (Procharger, Vortech, Paxton) are a great option, would allow you to keep everything under the stock hood, and would be a bit simpler in terms of installation than turbo's. We're both in the process of putting them on our engines, and have a thread going on here specifically about them you could give a read through. A lot of good info being shared on there thanks to everyone's research and the helpful input of some members on here already running them. And here's a preview into the kind of power per boost levels you can expect from a fairly mild 440:

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/mopp-0604-440-mopar-engine-build/

Hope this helps you out

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Turbo car is 10 x harder to tune than a nitrous car my friend. Mild nitrous kit is so easy to learn. Nitrous is an oxidizer...........

yeah i mean i dont doubt that for a second as far as the turbo being a hell of a lot harder to tune but i wont deny i got some **** luck and im scared itll kick in the first time i drive it with nitrous and get to gun hoe or something and whammy the whole car blows up (simply because thats how my luck works it takes small things that go wrong and makes it horrendous lol)