440 Numbers matching question

[J Hansen]

Hello All,
Looking at a '68 GTX. I think it's likely the original engine, but maybe not- here is what I know:

By the tag, it's a May 22nd "built" car, though I know that is not always when the car was assembled, and can be built after that date.

block casting date 5/27/68, block casting code 2536430-5
Its a factory A/C car, so access to the upper stamp pad sucks, but here is what I can see:
D440 so '68...
and 6-11 under that. Can't see the HP stamp, but it may be there under the bracket...

Bottom of the engine- next to bellhousing:
PT440S25131890- the 2513 should be 6/14, correct?

Here's the kicker: There is a vin stamp on the top of the motor, right where it should be, and it matches the VIN perfectly, except for the last digit, which is a "1" on the block when the last digit of the car VIN is a "9".

All the stampings look authentic, I'm thinking mis-stamp? I know the factories were just starting to stamp the VIN's regularly in mid-'68. Another question though, should the stamped date on the bottom of the block match the top date on the stamp pad? They're within a few days, but I thought the lower was the date the block was machined, and the upper the assembly date- is that accurate?

Lastly! The 727 dates out by the stamping as a Jan 31st, 1968 assembly, which I think is too early to be correct for the car. What say you? Insights appreciated! Thank you..

 

[69L48Z27]

I’m not liking they May 22nd date vs the engine dates. The VIN on top of the bell housing to trans usually looks like a mirror image. Sounds like the trans is not really in question but it helps ID the VIN if it’s there. All engine numbers sound fine. I don’t have the experience that some others do on here but the May date and VIN being off send up some flags for me.

I had an April built 68 GTX that numbers matched and it was all lined up very nicely in order. I would need to find some other examples of the same date difference to buy into it. How do all the body numbers line up with fender tag and broadcast sheet?

Pictures would help. This is not my car but gives you the idea of what VIN stamps might look like.

 

[moparnation74]

The casting date does not match the actual engine assembly date on the stamped pad........they can be months apart......Your dates on the block and assembly do not fit for your build date......

Build date of 5/22 and a casting date of 5/27 with an assembly date of 6/11, no way.......Just sounds to me someone made an effort to find a replacement block close to the build date but was unaware of all the stampings...

The trans is a replacement......based on the Jan timeframe....

 

[oldkimmer]

Back in the day they just thru in a tranny from the shelf. Or naybe from a donor car. Kim

 

[Cojohnso1]

Welcome to the code finding fight. I bought a 69 GTX. And mine is not even close to matching. But price did reflect a non number matching purchase. And one year older would not make it better. I've heard factory stories of engines and components not necessarily matched with their intented target. It wasn't a big priority in the day. I can't imagine that a replacement motor one digit off would occur? But at the factory? I would bet very possibly. And I think transmissions had even more juggling. With what you describe? I would be comfortable calling the car original. But if buying? I would certainly bring up the number discrepancy as a price nogotiation?

 

[J Hansen]

Here's the VIN stamp, and yes, I'd written off the transmission already. I'm a bit uneasy with the date variances too, which is why I'm asking. No broadcast. Too much paint for me to get a clear read on any body numbers, I found one that looked like perhaps early June (6/7), but not positive.

 

[J Hansen]

I’m not liking they May 22nd date vs the engine dates. The VIN on top of the bell housing to trans usually looks like a mirror image. Sounds like the trans is not really in question but it helps ID the VIN if it’s there. All engine numbers sound fine. I don’t have the experience that some others do on here but the May date and VIN being off send up some flags for me.

I had an April built 68 GTX that numbers matched and it was all lined up very nicely in order. I would need to find some other examples of the same date difference to buy into it. How do all the body numbers line up with fender tag and broadcast sheet?

Pictures would help. This is not my car but gives you the idea of what VIN stamps might look like.
View attachment 726227

Sorry, if by body numbers you mean the upper core and trunk lip stamping, they're both there and match the SO on the tag.

 

[Dragon Slayer]

Here is what is interesting. If the VIN on the block is real, it was made for a car 8 in front of yours. Which means a car that had the same or a day earlier build date. So clearly it would be a motor cast and machined AFTER the scheduled build date for a car, even if not yours.

So the reasonable research would be to see if GTX or cars from that plant in that late model year time frame were behind schedule. If so, it can be a matching motor.

Of course if stamping are not original seems elaborate to go to that effort and miss stamp a number; just as it seems hard to believe someone found a motor with just the last digit off.

Of course, is the Fender Tag wrong? What about other date codes on parts on the car?

 

[moparnation74]

Here's the VIN stamp, and yes, I'd written off the transmission already. I'm a bit uneasy with the date variances too, which is why I'm asking. No broadcast. Too much paint for me to get a clear read on any body numbers, I found one that looked like perhaps early June (6/7), but not positive.

View attachment 726229

What’s interesting are the remnants of paint on the oil sending unit...That is how LR painted the motors....

Also for LR built cars if you had a BS that would be a rarity.....

The problem is there is just too many questions and unknowns to legitimize the car......the car will always be questioned....it is just a matter of the price you can get it for and if it has the color/options you want.......

We can say all day the possibilities, production hold up, misstamping, etc but buyers do not buy on “what if’s”.....

 

[69L48Z27]

That’s why I asked about hidden numbers. Sounded like the fender tag may have been an issue. Sounds like that all lines up though.

 

[J Hansen]

Thank you everyone for your insights- I'm going to do a little more leg work, but agree it falls into an unverifiable grey area.

 

[Cojohnso1]

I purposely purchased my GTX because it was non numbers matching. It's a $20k car. It will never be a $40k+ car because of the changes made decades ago. But now I'm also free to upgrade. Hemi option? With no worries about making up de-values that occur when customizing a "Numbers matching original." Also, I didn't have the document chase that you are experiencing. In short? I believe this "Fully documented" chase is over rated? And takes some of the enjoyment out of owning and driving. That's just my opinion of course.

 

[moparnation74]

I purposely purchased my GTX because it was non numbers matching. It's a $20k car. It will never be a $40k+ car because of the changes made decades ago. But now I'm also free to upgrade. Hemi option? With no worries about making up de-values that occur when customizing a "Numbers matching original." Also, I didn't have the document chase that you are experiencing. In short? I believe this "Fully documented" chase is over rated? And takes some of the enjoyment out of owning and driving. That's just my opinion of course.

It’s not overrated. People can’t just buy on a whim and figure these things after the fact.....

The OP here is educated enough to come here and figure this out before making a mistake.....that’s not overrated that’s commendable......

I have owned fully documented cars and still do....I have never lost enjoyment in any of my rides......that’s your assumption......

 

[Cojohnso1]

It’s not overrated. People can’t just buy on a whim and figure these things after the fact.....

The OP here is educated enough to come here and figure this out before making a mistake.....that’s not overrated that’s commendable......

I have owned fully documented cars and still do....I have never lost enjoyment in any of my rides......that’s your assumption......

Again. I said it was my opinion. And I too have cars from race only to rub it with a diaper. My point is my favorite are cars that I can beat down the street. With little worry of loss of value. I have 2 Plymouths that are too hairy for the street. So only thrill is at the track. If I want something nice to look at? I'll buy a painting. But of course, to each there own. I'm just trying to convey not to get too hung up on documentation. Invest what works for you.

 

[moparnation74]

Again. I said it was my opinion. And I too have cars from race only to rub it with a diaper. My point is my favorite are cars that I can beat down the street. With little worry of loss of value. I have 2 Plymouths that are too hairy for the street. So only thrill is at the track. If I want something nice to look at? I'll buy a painting. But of course, to each there own. I'm just trying to convey not to get too hung up on documentation. Invest what works for you.

I don’t invest in cars....for me it is a hobby and I restore them my way......

The enjoyment for me is the hobby....

 

[Cojohnso1]

I don’t invest in cars....for me it is a hobby and I restore them my way......

The enjoyment for me is the hobby....

So they are your art? I take a more performance path. I always seem to get the "If it had just a little more power" bug. I'm seriously thinking about a Pro street build for the GTX that I used as example. I've build wedge motors. But never a hemi. It's also why I'm following the Muscle Motors "The Block" thread on this site. If hardcore engine builders are having problems with availability of this new block design? That's not good news for a single as myself.

 

[moparnation74]

So they are your art? I take a more performance path. I always seem to get the "If it had just a little more power" bug. I'm seriously thinking about a Pro street build for the GTX that I used as example. I've build wedge motors. But never a hemi. It's also why I'm following the Muscle Motors "The Block" thread on this site. If hardcore engine builders are having problems with availability of this new block design? That's not good news for a single as myself.

I used to do performance and daily drivers but I prefer originality and completeness......as far as “art” well that’s for museums.....when mine are at home I drive the “art” around when I have few time to do so......So no they don’t hang in one spot.......

I always get people saying, “I can’t believe you drive this car around.” My answer, “that’s what they were built for.”.....

So I guess I have movable art so to speak

 

[Cojohnso1]

Where are you located?

 

[Dragon Slayer]

For this car it is not investment grade anyway. Not original trans and no broadcast sheet. Even if a model where broadcast sheets not common, the hardcore guys stay away.

I am still intrigued by the engine though. It certainly would shoot a hole in the must be before car Scheduled build date. Just wondering how often did Scheduled build date projections miss the mark based on unforeseen circumstances. Manpower, parts, plant break down. If the VIN of car and all body marks match, and if the Fender tag is original, then by sequence number that dated block was put in a car that was scheduled earlier then engine manufacture. It is end of year car. Don't know if the GTX folks have a registry, but would be interesting to see data on late 68 cars. Anyway good luck with the purchase.

 

[moparnation74]

If a Lynch Road car has a BS that sends red flags up with the people that really know the plants and the cars from those plants.....

Show me how many A12’s have a BS ?