440 Vibration

[Phil Anderson]

I have a 77 Monaco police car with the original 440 engine in it. It has a vibration I cannot get rid of. It vbrates at all RPMs. It has the original cast crankshaft, I checked the p/n. I have a TCI tourque converter with the "B" weights on it. It has the "For cast crank only" front damper. It is the bull nose type that I believe is correct for 1977. I did remove all of the rotating accessories from the front of the motor. I have the counter weight installed on the end of the transmission and it has new Schumacher engine and transmission mounts. The engine was rebuilt by a shop in Mass. When I called them they could not tell me what they actually did to the motor as it was five years ago. I can see shiny new pistons in there from the bottom. I have come to realize that I am probably going to have to pull the engine. Question is do 440 rods have a specific direction they need to be in ? I do have some good close up photos of the botom end if anybody wants to see them I can send them. thanks.

 

[80fbody]

Cracked flexplate possibly. They like to crack around the bolts. Tough to see sometimes while still installed. Just another thought.

Another thought is they could have put pistons in that are too far from the factory external balance "bobweight".

 

[Garys1969RR]

Some times there is a weight welded to the flex plate. You only need the one on the T/C. The flex plate one is for if you are using a Zero Balance T/C, one with out weights. Also, the weight has to be in the correct position in relation to the crankshaft throws. I think some of the later years had a T/C that could be installed in any position on the flex plate. But my 77 440 had one where it would only fit in 1 position on the bolts. I have an 11" T/C came off my cast crank 1977-440 engine/transmission if you want to try another one.

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Only other option I know of is to dis assemble the engine and start over. Have it balanced with the T/C and front balancer.

 

[Phil Anderson]

I have a brand new Mopar zero flexplate. I tried a B&M balanced flexplate. It had a piece out of it, I guess thats how it worked. I balanced the driveshaft but that didn't help when the car is in nuetral or park. I have had the transmission out four times trying to solve this problem. It gets kinda expensive even though I try to save the ATF I still loose some. And it's not cheap anymore! When I get some time I guess I'll be pulling it.

 

[Phil Anderson]

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Here are the photos of the bottom end.

 

[Garys1969RR]

Before you tear it all down, try a stock 11 inch converter that your sure came off a cast crank motor. I can send you a pic of the balance weights on my 77-440 T/C if you want.

 

[Phil Anderson]

I would hope that TCI knows what they are doing when they add the weights to a coverter. However I am still a lttle suspect of it. Either way I'm in for some work. If the trannys got to come out again I may as well send the short block to the machine shop. First thing I'm gonna do is to take off the inspection cover and measure the weights.

 

[80fbody]

I'm not sure I'd tear the motor down yet either. Couple things while I was under there. Try to find a number under one of the pistons to determine what they are & if it really should have been balanced. Look at the counterweights on the crank & see if it looks like any recent drilling or welding was done to balance. Also pull the converter & either have it checked for balance or possibly a cracked hub. Myself, I'd also get a dial indicator on the crank or balancer & pry the crank fore/aft to determine thrust clearance. You could also pop the number three main & see how that bearing half looked. Maybe one rod as well. Post some pics of the bearings if there's any unusual wear.

Again, I'm no pro. Just some ideas.

 

[wedge69]

Also may want to look at the Front balincer ! Some time over the years the rubber will go bad and the outer ring will slip and throw it off. I had thia happen to a BB Ford one time. Drove me Nuts till I found it !!

 

[Phil Anderson]

Thanks its been all buttoned up for a while now. I finally got all the leaks fixed. I was installing a new 971 oilpan when I took those shots. I wanted to document which crank it actually had . At his point it won't be much more trouble to pull the motor if I have to pull the converter anyway. I'm going to be making some power upgrades so I need to know what shape the motor is in. Now all I need is about five grand !

 

[Redhorse719]

I'm not sure I'd tear the motor down yet either. Couple things while I was under there. Try to find a number under one of the pistons to determine what they are & if it really should have been balanced. Look at the counterweights on the crank & see if it looks like any recent drilling or welding was done to balance. Also pull the converter & either have it checked for balance or possibly a cracked hub. Myself, I'd also get a dial indicator on the crank or balancer & pry the crank fore/aft to determine thrust clearance. You could also pop the number three main & see how that bearing half looked. Maybe one rod as well. Post some pics of the bearings if there's any unusual wear.

Again, I'm no pro. Just some ideas.

Also the pad on the rod cap will show some grinding to even the weights when balancing, I have never ever seen eight stock rods the same weight.

 

[Phil Anderson]

Ok I have crank p/n 4027175 balancer p/n 3830482. this does not seem to work. It is an HP engine with a cast crank. I do have the "B" wieghts on the torque converter.
'




































b










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[Garys1969RR]

Are you sure that is a cast crankshaft and not forged? Not sure how to tell by looking at it, but some members may be able to tell from the pics. I would verify the crank type and work from there.

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I can see a 440 on the crank, and a part number. Looks cast to me.

 

[Meep-Meep]

That is definitely a cast crank. Also not all cast crank dampers are interchangeable. Meaning, I think the tapered one goes with a specific crank. 440 source seems to have some good info on that.

 

[Phil Anderson]

The more I research the more I am confused. I have been going on all the websites. I have the how to rebuild your B RB engines. I have the1977 parts CD. The only thing I can think of is that maybe the HP 440 uses a different dampener than the non HP 440.

 

[Mopars & Missiles]

...........That is definitely a cast crank.....

Agree 100% :iamwithstupid:

 

[Garys1969RR]

Well obviously something is un balanced. If your dampener says 440 CAST CRANK ONLY on it, that is the right one. If your torque converter came off a 440 cast crank engine, that is the right one. The original builder must have changed the piston weight, but didn't re balance the assembly. You could pull the converter out to double check it. Also pull a cyl head to see what pistons you have. Send a picture of the cleaned of piston top and we can prob identify it.

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Also make sure its firing on all cyls first.

 

[WAYNES WORLD]

More then once I have worked on an engine that seemed to be out of balance with a vibration and it turned out to be a miss or untuned carb. I would check each plug by using a timing light on each wire, run the engine from idle to about 3k rpm and watch to see if the firing pattern as shown on the crank is steady or if it's bouncing around. If it's missing at idle just pull one wire at a time to see the culprit. Next, I would start looking for a vacuum leak or even a coolant leak into one cylinder. Pull each plug and look for one that's been "steam cleaned". Another thing to try is richen up the carb to see if that makes a difference. These are simple things that you can try. Might not fix it but maybe you will get lucky and not have to tear apart your motor.
Wayne

 

[Phil Anderson]

Thanks, compresion is fine. Tested for vacuum leaks and coolant leaks , none found. I will scope it out next. Stand by for updates.