67 Belvedere + Car not charging + the HEI came with the car.

[Jakemakoto]

I have a 67 belvedere with a 318 and a 904 (A518 tranny upgrade going to the shop for a rebuild soon).

My current issue (Hopefully last issue for now - so it can be my daily driver) is that my alternator does not charge my battery. I have been all over the internet and just can not find an example of what I have under the hood and could use some help.

First off: It starts with up and runs pretty smooth.. so as much as I hate GM I can not knock the HEI part of the ignition I currently have - its running good - minus the charging.

Here are some pictures of what I have (I think the 30amp fuse thingy under the voltage regulator is replacing the ballast (Just guessing) - cause I don't see a ballast anywhere.

The last picture is the alternator I have on the car.

I am just asking for some assistance, but have no clue what information to provide.. but if asked I can find the answer. Thanks... Jake

 

[440roadrunner]

The older Mopar systems are one of the simplest in the industry, and the change in 70 and later is about "next."

First do yourself a favor, if you have not, waltz over to "MyMopar and download a free service manual. Electrical is Chapter 8

http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=31

This page

http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=78

has a simplified diagram of "what you have"

The alternator you pictured is a "modification" of a 70 and later. The CHANGE between 69/ earlier and 70 /later is that the later one has TWO field terminals, where the 69 has only one. On the earlier ones, the second field brush is grounded "permanently."

So your FIRST job is to take your multimeter and make sure the brush at the top of your photo is actually grounded to the case. Put one lead on the alternator case with the meter set for resistance (ohms). Put the other probe on the field terminals one at a time. The one WITH the "push on" connector tab should show "a few" ohms, and the other should show a dead short, IE zero ohms


In your photo, the grounded one (zero ohms) is the one at the top of the photo.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Next think in "sections"

1....The parts, the regulator and alternator. "New" by the way does not mean "functional."

2....The field circuit, IE the switched ignition run power feeds to the voltage regulator IGN terminal (push on) and the screw terminal (green) of the VR goes to the insulated field terminal of the alternator.


3....The output circuit. This is the great big thick stud / nut and black wire, which feeds the output of the alternator through the bulkhead, through the ammeter, back out the bulkhead, and to the battery.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Let's make a couple of easy tests. There are several ways to proceed

1.....Remove the green "push on" field wire at the alternator. Hook a "clip" alligator lead to the disconnected alternator terminal. Run this wire to "battery" that is the big huge stud on the starter relay. Touch it a few times in subdued light and listen. you should see and hear a small spark.

Start and run the engine, slowly bring up RPM. Watch the ammeter. It should start to charge. If not, take your multimeter and hook it up to the battery. Again bring up RPM. It should start to bring the battery voltage up, depending on how far discharged it might be.

If the voltage does not rise, and stays down around 12.5, hook your meter over onto the large output stud on the alternator. Again bring up RPM. If it rises WAY up say, above 18V, there is a break in the output charging wire somewhere. Bad connection in the firewall connector, problems in the ammeter, etc

If the voltage does NOT rise, and stays down around 12.5 or below, it is NOT charging. RE check that the field circuit is getting power. In order to do that you need to measure field current. Post the brand and model (or photo) of your multimeter, I can tell you how.

What you want to determine, is if with the clip / alligator lead hooked to battery, that the field is getting power AND is drawing 3-4 amps or so.

Post back........................

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

2.....If the above test DOES result in the ammeter showing charge, this shows that the alternator is capable, and that the field (brushes) are getting power and grounded on one of them.


Now let's check the field circuit. Hook the green field wire back up to the alternator. Disconnect both wires at the VR. Jumper these two wires together. Run the engine, and again see if the ammeter shows charge.

If it does...........make absolutely CERTAIN that the VR is grounded. Don't just look at it. Scrape paint / rust away around the bolt holes, and the back of the VR mounting, and mount tight using star lock washers. Re-connect it and see if the system charges.

If not.........replace the VR

- - - Updated - - -

Also you appear to have some form of HEI type ignition. The ballast resistor would have been bypassed. Do you know what the relay is for, below the VR? It might be supplying ignition power, that is the key might be triggering the relay, and the relay supplying power to ignition and the VR

 

[Jakemakoto]

440.

First off thanks for the help.. been reading your posts for a while on the forum.

As for the tech manual and chapter 8.. I have it and even printed out the diagram sections

I only did #1 step as of now. Here are the results.

1. Alternator reads 0 ohms
2. Received spark (starter relay "Big terminal" connected to "Field" Green wire spot on the Alternator
3. Started engine "Not warm yet" no Change in ammeter (It is just sitting in the middle)
Note 1: I fully charged the battery last night
Note 2: I have my fast idle set to 900rpm
Note 3: Connected voltmeter to the battery wile warming up and it read 12.85 volts; after warmed up it read 12.85 volts
Note 4: Ran the engine well past my Dwell/Tach meter about 2000rpm; charge dropped to 12.82volts, let off the gas and it went
back to 12.85volts
Note 5: Connected volt meter directly to the alternator and it read 12.80volts, ran the engine to about 2000rpm again and it
dropped to 12.76 volts, let off the gas and it went back up to 12.80volts.

Volt meter model and type:
I have a FLUKE 77/BN but I can borrow my Dads FLUKE 77IV if needed

 

[440roadrunner]

Well it's just not charging at all with those readings. You ARE taking the readings with the engine running and "revved up" a little bit?

What is disturbing is that it seems to be drawing field current. I would check that. If you read the shop manual it talks about doing so.

First lets DOUBLE check field resistance. Disconnect the field (green) wire, and connect your meter, set on resistance, from the alternator field terminal to ground. You should read "a few" ohms. These typically draw 3-4 amps on some units, as much as 5 or 6 on others, so if you "plug" that into ohms law, 5 amps say, and 12V, that works out to "expect" about 2---3 ohms. Be sure to get the probes "tight" that is good connections. If you read a dead short, do NOT do the amperage test, below.



BE CAREFUL as you can blow the expensive fuse in the meter. If you are unaware, NEVER ground an ammeter 'across' a battery. An ammeter must be in series, and MUST be able to handle the maximum current expected.

Set your fluke for the DC A scale (A with straight line over top) Move your probes so the red one is in the red jack, and the black probe is in the "10A" jack.

Loosen the belt so you can turn the pulley. connect one probe of your meter to the alternator field terminal. You need alligator clips to do this. With one hand on the pulley, stick the other probe of the meter onto the battery stud of the starter relay. Turn the pulley by hand. The meter will change some, but you should show at least 3A and a bit more, and no more than 6A at the most.

If this works OK, I would re-run the field test. That is, hook battery to the field, run the engine, and see if it charges. Monitor alternator stud voltage, and bring up engine RPM to at least 1500. Alternator voltage should climb up past 14V

If it does not charge, replace the alternator

- - - Updated - - -

Additional. I HATE depending on "parts store" testers, which are unreliable, and may be there "to sell parts." But I'm not there. We may be missing something that "If I was there" would be obvious

If you do get to the point of replacing the alternator, do have the store test it first. Do NOT accept the "roundback" style like you have now. Buy a mid -70's "squareback" which will have two field connections. Make up a ground pigtail and ground one field terminal, then wire it up as before.

Showing the newer "squareback" (improved) and the older style "roundback"

 

[Jakemakoto]

440,


Yes Sir, the engine was running and revved up to about 2000rpm (+/-) dwell/tach only goes to 1600rpm and we buried the needle.


field resistance: 3.8 ohms


A scale and turning.. nothing (with or without battery connected)


Here are come pictures of what we saw as far as readings go.. everyone one was with a lead connected to the starter relay (red cable) and a connection to the field post of the alternator.. I connected it two different ways and spun it to make sure.






This was connected to the starter relay and the field of the alternator in the A scale.



this is the voltage from the starter relay to the field of the alternator



I have not finished tracing out the wires and this is just a rough draft as I am working it, but here is how that 30A relay under the voltage regulator is set up so far.



Replacing the alternator.. should I upgrade the voltage regulator as well to one from the same year?

Thanks, for the help thus far.

Jake

 

[Jakemakoto]

440. Installed new alternator (Square back) and ground the other FLD to the alternator. No change. Everything is the same. I did get the voltage regulator for the same year as the alternator. But have not hooked it up yet.

Additional stuff:
We went through very ground we could find under the hood and cleaned/sanded to ensure a good ground.

Without the engine running but the key on and if we turn on the heater the ammeter needle moves to the left.

All of the lights on the car work

A majority of the dash lights work (some are burned out)

Found a wire in the bullhead connection that was not going anywhere; looked under the dash and it was just hanging there - pushed it back into the bulkhead fitting - the wire was the thick black wire going to the ammeter. - still no change

Thanks, Jake

 

[440roadrunner]

Yes Sir, the engine was running and revved up to about 2000rpm (+/-) dwell/tach only goes to 1600rpm and we buried the needle.................field resistance: 3.8 ohms...............A scale and turning.. nothing

Hmmmm ........I'll be back

- - - Updated - - -

440. Installed new alternator (Square back) and ground the other FLD to the alternator. No change. Everything is the same. I did get the voltage regulator for the same year as the alternator. But have not hooked it up yet.

Additional stuff:
We went through very ground we could find under the hood and cleaned/sanded to ensure a good ground.

Without the engine running but the key on and if we turn on the heater the ammeter needle moves to the left.

All of the lights on the car work

A majority of the dash lights work (some are burned out)

Found a wire in the bullhead connection that was not going anywhere; looked under the dash and it was just hanging there - pushed it back into the bulkhead fitting - the wire was the thick black wire going to the ammeter. - still no change

Thanks, Jake

Well THAT is a major find.................

OK let's "start over" with the new alternator.

What you SHOULD have at this point with your new squareback is "setup same as" your 69 / earlier

So let's try and get that working.

1....Clip to the alternator stud. You should have "same as battery" voltage. Wiggle that big black you were messin' with at the bulkhead and see how bad that connection seems to be. It might be bad, it might be someone hacked a work around. That IS the main alternator charging path back to the battery.

Once you get that "solid."

2.....Again hook a clip lead to the disconnected field terminal of the alternator. Clip that to the starter relay "battery" stud and make CERTAIN you can see a spark. If there is any doubt, measure current draw of the field. (I don't understand..........the earlier tests you made should have shown that on the previous alternator)

Are you using "cheap" "Radio Shack" quality "clip" leads? I do...........and I've found more than one that was open. So check, recheck, suspect, and be suspicios.

3....If that seems OK, leave the clip lead hooked to the alternator field, and battery, and run the engine up, monitor voltage at the alternator stud........see what it does. If it goes "way high" above 16V then you STILL HAVE a huge problem at the black bulkhead connection, AND THIS MAY BE the root of the problem

If however the voltage goes up depending on RPM AND the battery voltage (at the battery) also climbs, then you have found the neighborhood of the trouble.

4...WHAT MAY have happened. With the black wire "hanging" out of the bulkhead, what SHOULD have happened is that the VR would have tried to cause the alternator to go "full output" that is maximum field current. At high RPM, with no load on the alternator output..........the voltage would have gone VERY high---OVER a hundred volts........and could very well have failed the diodes in the unit.

 

[Jakemakoto]

440. Again thanks for the assist. Since you are nice enough to provide assistance, I don't want to leave you hanging and not respond to you.

I am back on base (Point Loma) in my barracks room and my Dad is on travel to Port Hueneme (Navy Security Inspector) so we won't be able to conduct anymore troubleshooting until this weekend, My parents house is too far for me especially with traffic to try and find a ride out to. As soon as we go through your steps I will post again.

Jake

 

[coloradodave]

440roadrunner: You have a terrific amount of knowledge about automotive electrical systems. What's your background? I really appreciate the time you're taking to try and help a fellow member out.

 

[Jakemakoto]

Colorado Dave,

Reading the heck out of posts on this site trying to figure out my issue I remember somewhere in one of the posts 440 saying that he was a Navy Electronics Technician in the 60's and was helping a friend of his on Miramar (Back when the Navy TOP GUN was there/before it became a Marine base) work on his MOPAR and pretty much went through the entire electrical system and became a self taught expert.

Jake

 

[440roadrunner]

Yes. So far as Point Loma, a good friend of mine, now gone, grew up in San Diego, and as a young man, was a marine radiotelegraph operator for "back then" Scripps Institute. He spent time on some of their ships, including "Flip" and some of them of course are no longer in commission. WWD is the call sign. They used to have an HF transmitter site way out by Miramar where I was stationed at the time. It was about 1-2 miles off the E end of the runways out there

The receiver (operator site) is gone too, it's now a marine acquarium near La Jolla.

I have no idea, anymore, if Scripps uses ANY HF radio, it might all be satellite comm by now.

I was first licensed as a radio amateur in about 65 in high school. SIx years in Navy electronics. Maintained GCA RADAR at Miramar. Bought my first "3 1/2" Mopars at Miramar.........69 383 RR, a 70 V code, and a 64 440 Dodge, with a 426, and later, 440. Also had a 'Cuda stripped out race body that had been run at Pikes Peak I was told, never have been able to figure out when, or "if."

I also had a part time job at the Miramar auto hobby shop. Helped a fair amount of guys out there. "Back then" of course there was no help. You dug in and read the factory service manual, which as you all know "does not contain everything." Of course I had no access to the factory bulletins and revisions.

 

[Jakemakoto]

440.

Thanks for everything.. today.. Installed a new voltage regulator.. (No change).. cleaned every connector on the bulkhead..Changed the (for some reason black wire going to the positive side from the relay from a 14ga to a 10g a red wire... My dad thought maybe we have a ground issue (he's a retired RM (radioman/IT and he sux at electrical)).. so we made a pigtail to ground the voltage regulator to the firewall (just to make sure) and we ground the voltage regulator to the alternator.... then BAM.. 13.64vdc at idle

Don't know if the other voltage regulator is crap or not.. will test at a later date.. need to finish up adjusting the kick down and putting all the lights on it so I can get it on the road and put in my name "officially" (Its going to be my daily driver)... Next big project will be the power front disk conversion....... hope this goes smooth...


Jake