Another TC question
- Thread starter Sonny
- Start date
wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
right
as long as you keep same balance weights if an external balanced motor
if so recommend a weighted flexplate as neutral balanced converters are easier to find
as long as you keep same balance weights if an external balanced motor
if so recommend a weighted flexplate as neutral balanced converters are easier to find
Sonny
It’s all fun til the rabbit gets the gun.
Thanks. My 1978 440 is external or internal balanced? How can I tell?
wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
most likely cast crank and external
look at the front dampner for a balance weight cast in there are pictures that someone may post up for you
also check your current converter for extra balance weights there are diagrams that show the size and placements of the weights used for engine balance (the converter itself may have balance weights for converter balance but they are in random places and usually smaller)
as you have found out the factory went to the smaller converter on late 440's due to severe lack of torque off the line- same reason GM went to the switch pitch turbo 400 and 200- the could also raise the idle without the car creeping so much
It also allowed them to keep a tall axle ratio
Gas mileage was still horrible and exhaust heat was terrible due to the late closing exhausts (diluted intake charge for smog)
check out B and M for the flexplate
I do not know what you have done to your motor but first fix is a cam with a lot less overlap (and more lift) and shorter seat duration if still low compression
second fix is a set of KB special pistons for that cylinder head if you are not changing heads
together they will drop your Exhaust gas temp by many HUNDREDS of degrees, up your torque and mileage and make a much more derivable car carb and manifold are fine headers if you can stand the noise
now give us your details and we can talk specifics not generalities
Here's the Physics
The lower the compression the more throttle you have to give to get the same power
the more throttle of the same power the more heat so detonation
so drop the compression some more- right this is the drill MOPAR went through in the early 70's
and killed the 440 in 78 I have a 78 440 15 passanger maxivan- been there - done that
look at the front dampner for a balance weight cast in there are pictures that someone may post up for you
also check your current converter for extra balance weights there are diagrams that show the size and placements of the weights used for engine balance (the converter itself may have balance weights for converter balance but they are in random places and usually smaller)
as you have found out the factory went to the smaller converter on late 440's due to severe lack of torque off the line- same reason GM went to the switch pitch turbo 400 and 200- the could also raise the idle without the car creeping so much
It also allowed them to keep a tall axle ratio
Gas mileage was still horrible and exhaust heat was terrible due to the late closing exhausts (diluted intake charge for smog)
check out B and M for the flexplate
I do not know what you have done to your motor but first fix is a cam with a lot less overlap (and more lift) and shorter seat duration if still low compression
second fix is a set of KB special pistons for that cylinder head if you are not changing heads
together they will drop your Exhaust gas temp by many HUNDREDS of degrees, up your torque and mileage and make a much more derivable car carb and manifold are fine headers if you can stand the noise
now give us your details and we can talk specifics not generalities
Here's the Physics
The lower the compression the more throttle you have to give to get the same power
the more throttle of the same power the more heat so detonation
so drop the compression some more- right this is the drill MOPAR went through in the early 70's
and killed the 440 in 78 I have a 78 440 15 passanger maxivan- been there - done that
Sonny
It’s all fun til the rabbit gets the gun.
Thanks. Problem is my engine was missing the hb and 727 is missing the tc so Im driving blind.
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You wouldn't happen to have the pan off? Take any pics of it when it was off?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ho...ll-forged-crank-from-cast-spotters-guide/amp/
Dampners that were used over the years...
http://www.440source.com/dampers.htm
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ho...ll-forged-crank-from-cast-spotters-guide/amp/
Dampners that were used over the years...
http://www.440source.com/dampers.htm
Sonny
It’s all fun til the rabbit gets the gun.
I didn’t take any before taking it to the machine shop, but I bought a hb from jegs with the adjustable weights. Should work for both conditions per the spec. Thanks for the 440 link! Very good info there.
PurpleBeeper
Well-Known Member
Hey Sonny, you need to be a little careful here. Passenger car 440's came were externally balanced engines with cast crankshafts. Since you don't have the original harmonic balancer, you should verify you still have a cast crankshaft (externally balanced) in the engine. Cast cranks will have "very sharp/square" crankshaft counterweights & forged cranks (internally balanced) are somewhat narrower and smoother looking. You need to be sure which crank you have since that determines if you need a weighted harmonic balancer + flex plate. Wyrm is right...you want the "torque converter balance weight" on the flex plate itself & run a regular old neutral balance toque converter (more choices).
For your specific question....sure, you could use a different flex plate & torque converter as long as they
A) physically fit into the bellcrank area of the transmission (where torque converter goes)
B) you have the correct balance weights (or no weights) dictated by your crankshaft.
Now, if someone put in a different year crankshaft and/or balanced the engine....all bets are off.
For your specific question....sure, you could use a different flex plate & torque converter as long as they
A) physically fit into the bellcrank area of the transmission (where torque converter goes)
B) you have the correct balance weights (or no weights) dictated by your crankshaft.
Now, if someone put in a different year crankshaft and/or balanced the engine....all bets are off.
Sonny
It’s all fun til the rabbit gets the gun.
Thanks! I will check when I get the crank from the shop.
wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
The shop should be able to tell you- problem solved- now chase the proper parts
see if it has heavy wide beam "6 pack" rods (also used in many mostly HP 440's but can show up anywhere or LY rods
rebuild the rods with SPS/ Mopar performance rod bolts (great bolts and not nearly as pricey as ARP
if it does have the heavy rods now is the time to switch to LY rods
use these pistons with stock open chamber head (recess on the side away from the plug)
https://www.uempistons.com/index.ph...d=2996&zenid=84dc29665ecc09145c3d25b25949f014
use ductile top ring
if you use a closed chamber head post back
cam will be application dependent get your head and compression worked out first
see if it has heavy wide beam "6 pack" rods (also used in many mostly HP 440's but can show up anywhere or LY rods
rebuild the rods with SPS/ Mopar performance rod bolts (great bolts and not nearly as pricey as ARP
if it does have the heavy rods now is the time to switch to LY rods
use these pistons with stock open chamber head (recess on the side away from the plug)
https://www.uempistons.com/index.ph...d=2996&zenid=84dc29665ecc09145c3d25b25949f014
use ductile top ring
if you use a closed chamber head post back
cam will be application dependent get your head and compression worked out first
Sonny
It’s all fun til the rabbit gets the gun.
I am using my 452 heads (alum ones added later) along with Keith Black raised pistons to get to 9:1 compression. Medium cam- Comp Xtreme energy 21-223-4. Full length Headers. 1800 stall tc. Aluminum Dual plane intake. Undecided on carb- either my new Edelbrock 650 AVS2 or get my thermoquad rebuilt. Trying to build a nice power tour car that’s dependable with some attitude to boot!
PurpleBeeper
Well-Known Member
I suggest you call the crank shop & ask them...why not? You might want to "consider" getting your engine balanced. It can stay externally balanced, but it's best if the shop has your flex plate, harmonic balancer, pistons, rods, rings & crankshaft all together for the balance job.
wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
you are shooting yourself in the foot with that old chevy profile cam
whoever suggested it is living in the 70's
whoever suggested it is living in the 70's
forphorty
Well-Known Member
LOL, I knew that was coming.
wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
KB pistons good choice I helped design them
Either carb
I like TQ better except the first year one take the time to learn how to tune it
the 1997 vintage XE268H leaves some torque on the table compared with a MOPAR CAM
9:1 you can run a 256-260 cam with same or more lift intake close about 56 ABDC
you do not really need to squeeze the lca to 110 increasing the overlap when you can do it with seat timing
I would recommend a HP converter with the 268 if you already own it intake closes about 60 ABDC and it's already advanced about as much as you would want
Either carb
I like TQ better except the first year one take the time to learn how to tune it
the 1997 vintage XE268H leaves some torque on the table compared with a MOPAR CAM
9:1 you can run a 256-260 cam with same or more lift intake close about 56 ABDC
you do not really need to squeeze the lca to 110 increasing the overlap when you can do it with seat timing
I would recommend a HP converter with the 268 if you already own it intake closes about 60 ABDC and it's already advanced about as much as you would want
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