Car building cost discussion

[Darius]

Some of you have been following my thread on 66-70 forum titled "B Body Stiffening"
I am building this car in a friend's shop. He has been building custom cars for about 23 years now.
Working along side a guy who has to make money doing this type of work has been fun and VERY enlightening. Not only have I learned a LOT but I have at my disposal just about any tool or piece of equipment I might need to do anything to the car.
The discussion we have often is his client's comments about his pricing and the impossibility of being able to predict exactly how mush time these things take to build. My friend's name is Dean so that is how I will refer to him. Dean has looked over at me many times and rolls his eyes and cusses me out (good naturedly) because of two things. First, how lucky I have been with how many things have worked out in the swapping of new tech and metric based parts fitting or easily modified to fit in my 40 year old imperial unit based car. Second and more importantly, how lucky I am that I have the TIME to tinker,figure,modify,fit,etc. all these things in.
His comment is consistently..."Even if I KNEW how long it would take me to do these things there is NO WAY I could ever charge that much and make any sales, and since it is all trial and error how can I possibly predict the time so that I can price the product such that I am profitable?"
Example my fitting the steering column. I spent about 12-14 hours just installing ,uninstalling ,trimming ,re-installing, uninstalling, more trimming, etc. Once I had it fit it only took about 1 1/2 hours to fab the mount and install for the final fit.A typical shop in Calif has an appx $100 per hour rate. How many would pay $1600 just to fit a steering column!

I posted this as a discussion about build costs as I see a lot of rants about how much shops charge. I'm not saying they all do perfect work and I realize there are lots of sides to this but here is a real live experience I thought might help some understand a bit better.

 

[Donny]

Good points, thanks for bringing this up! I just recently completed a 71 Mini. The scope of contracted work for me to do was; Media Blast the car, Epoxy Prime the car, install new floors, new outer front fenders, and inner front fenders, and modify the rear shock towers to accept the new coil overs, modify the new front installed sheetmetal to accept the VTEC Mini Tec subframe assy.

I stated the possible hours it could take, but, indicated it was an estimate only. I also said that I don't bill for re-do's; meaning if I install it, then have to re-do it in modifications; like I screwed something up, I don't charge for that.

The customer understood this, and wrote me a check each month (took 3 months) to do what was set out in the scope of our contracts, yes, contacts, in writing, you're a fool if you don't do so!

This recent car was a joy to do, and the customer was wonderful.

The car before this Mini was a 64.5 Mustang, from day one, the customer was trying to cheap me down -- and I already work from the bottom up, not top down (lesson learned, do it the other way next time), well, he tried to get me to jew down my price, I held firm and didn't lower it by one dollar! It was not a pleasant experience for me. The problem is that these guys sit on the shitter, read fantasy articles in Hot Rod and Car Craft that show a car going from junk to show on 2 pages, and a WHOLE lot of in-between information omitted, so, these dreamers wipe their butts, have an idea what they want to spend, and perhaps what's it worth, but no idea what things actually cost.

Often, if they are cutting corners, the first corner to cut is Media blasting, this is the one corner you don't want to cut. I say this because this is what I do, and, frankly will always advocate this process at any time, on any car. But, there is distinct and measurable advantages for doing this process where other processes are compromises; Media Blasting (I feel) is the best compromise with the most value with the most benefits with least adversary.

The one's that have done their homework usually write the checks with no issues. Some people will write a check for 1600 bucks for a steering column installation, but, in a case like that, I wonder if pricing it on a shop rate; meaning how long is 'should' take would be proper? But, custom fabrication stuff is a whole different ball game!

 

[moparpoor]

Thank you,somebody actually took the time to put a dollar figure to their time!!!!!!One fact I really whant to point out.Is all the change orders mid stream.I can't charge enough to even think about recovering my time or materials.Most DIY guys just never track time and cost when building stuff.

 

[iraqivet01]

It why most cars are restored by an individual, and not a shop.
Not many people can walk into a shop now days with a barn yard find, and say, have at it.
Just way too much time goes into sanding, taking apart, putting back together, cleaning, polishing, and rebuilding. Most shops will not redo your chrome, they will buy new. It because the labor it takes to do it is cheaper to order it from an internet site, and then mark it up 30 -40% and call it a day.

 

[Budnicks]

yep that's right

It why most cars are restored by an individual, and not a shop.
Not many people can walk into a shop now days with a barn yard find, and say, have at it.
Just way too much time goes into sanding, taking apart, putting back together, cleaning, polishing, and rebuilding. Most shops will not redo your chrome, they will buy new. It because the labor it takes to do it is cheaper to order it from an internet site, and then mark it up 30 -40% and call it a day.

:iamwithstupid: Yep your correct there, that is a perfect example of someone building a car, most people just don't get it, at all, what it takes to do it right, but if you own a fabrication/restoration or a rod shop, you won't make much money or maybe I should say you won't have very many return customers if your charging $1600 for a steering column install, no matter how trick or difficult of a job it is... There are just some places parts/projects on a complete restoration or build that will take way too long & you can't charge what you have in total time or full price, in the actual time & material, you have in it, "to a valued customer if you ever want them to return again", you will make it up on some other part of the project if your a good fair business person.. That's just the way things go when you build custom cars or restorations, "some thing are much easier than others", it all works out in the long run, or you can chalk it up to experience, in learning, "how not to do things in the future", unless you are very specific in your contract, with your customers, on what you will charge, for what is to be installed, some things on the project, will be time & material & some projects will be just a straight bid price, that protects both the customer & the builder/shop... It's only fair to both parties that way... "That's Just My Honest Opinion", I've been there, done that, on both side of the equation, builder & customer...

 

[MoparBill]

Another factor not mentioned here is the overhead costs that real shops have to carry. They pay either rent or loan payments, utility coasts, advertising, payroll, taxes, benefits for their employees, supplies... they spend countless hours quoting jobs they might not get.
I lose track of how long things take on projects; sometimes the smallest task seems to take hours. If I was paying for a restoration from start to finish I would not be able to afford one! I try to do as much as possible and only farm out the things I cannot do myself.
The bottom line is I realize the costs involved with running a business and I don't expect a shop to do quality work for me for a dirt cheap price. On my current project I will farm out the soda blasting, finish body work and paint, and putting the vinyl top on. The rest I will do myself to keep the costs down.

 

[Donny]

I see a handful of cars that grace a local shop here in S.A. that are in for just paint; they come in bare shells, and leave bare shells -- but straight, clean, and pretty bare shells.

 

[fla 66 cuda]

I have been working on my sons charger since march of this year. I am not a fabricator nor a welder,body man,painter [i'm learning as i go].I have built several cars in the past [well disassembled/reassembled] with friends doing the metal/welding/paint. This time i'm doing it alone with my sons help because we can't afford to have someone do it [plus it's really just a regular car nothing special] in what i have done so far i have gained a new respect for folks that do this for their busness [not that i did not have respect for them before] the amount of time it takes to make one thing and god forbid it don't work you gotta do it again. The cost of the tools you need to make stuff with [which i don't have either so it takes longer] and the overhead costs,insurances,EPA ******** ect. It is no wonder the rates are what they are but it is surely not enough, i'm glad that most folks owning these shops do it for the love of the cars and the hobby cause they sure ain't gettin rich [tho it seems that some folks think so]. I work in the marine industry and there is nothing worse than a customer that keeps changing their mind and wanting it for less [some times i just want to tell them to take your money elsewhere so i don't have to deal with you] but that don't pay the bills. I belive you get what you pay for the cheeper the bill the crappier the job, you guys that own shops keep doing what you doing with out ya'll a lot of classics would go to the crusher, some of us appreciate what you do.

 

[Pistol Pete]

This factors in when you're trying to buy a project car as well. I'm working on a deal right now that is R U S T Y as hell. But it's an R/T and worth saving. That said, there is not one piece of sheetmetal (save the roof, maybe ) on this car that doesn't need replacing. Not one. The current owner said "Well, it's gotta be worth more than when I bought it, I mean, they're not making them anymore, right ? Yeah, well, they're making Pintos anymore either................

But, people watch Barrett-Jackson or see a triple black Hemi 4spd car sell on the bag and figure their car could be a star as well never, ever able to comprehend what it actually takes to get a car to that level.

 

[fla 66 cuda]

I have been saying for several years that the days of a low production muscle car or any classic for that matter for small amounts of money sitting in a garage or barn is few and far between.Thanks to overhaulin,barrett jackson,desert classics ect. i watched these shows for entertainment with out giving it a thought then i realized the damage it was doing to our hobby along with the investors[flippers], folks like me [not a lot of money] won't be able to purchase and restore a classic [even a real POS] cause the owner think's it's worth a ton of cash so it'll rot into the ground on the other side of the coin the fully restored cars are over priced [depending on options] and out of reach for the normal workin folk,we also have a shortage of young guns in this hobby to carry on in our hobby the younger folks don't want to work on old cars most don't even like them. Along with the tree huggers trying to get laws passed to get rid of old cars,none of these folks have a clue to what it takes to fix up these cars and the love we have for them. We are the keepers of history no matter if it's stock or modifyed it's history and should be preserved just like a piece of art.

 

[Finallygotmine]

I have been saying for several years that the days of a low production muscle car or any classic for that matter for small amounts of money sitting in a garage or barn is few and far between.Thanks to overhaulin,barrett jackson,desert classics ect. i watched these shows for entertainment with out giving it a thought then i realized the damage it was doing to our hobby along with the investors[flippers], folks like me [not a lot of money] won't be able to purchase and restore a classic [even a real POS] cause the owner think's it's worth a ton of cash so it'll rot into the ground on the other side of the coin the fully restored cars are over priced [depending on options] and out of reach for the normal workin folk,we also have a shortage of young guns in this hobby to carry on in our hobby the younger folks don't want to work on old cars most don't even like them. Along with the tree huggers trying to get laws passed to get rid of old cars,none of these folks have a clue to what it takes to fix up these cars and the love we have for them. We are the keepers of history no matter if it's stock or modifyed it's history and should be preserved just like a piece of art.

The underlined words in your post is part of the answer. The simple laws of supply and demand automatically make these cars more valuable. Anything of limited production, or timeless styling or superior performance will be saved, horded, copied, or emulated and over time these things will enjoy a resurgence in popularity. The fact that this country has had a renaissance love affair of classic muscle cars has been a good thing in my eyes.
The market is what it is. People will pay what they think they can get.
One odd thing that may be driving this market though, I believe, is that people do not trust the financial markets right now and are looking for an investment. Since housing used to be what people trusted and now don't, I think some people are investing in hard collectibles, Like classic cars.
I view it as a good thing, I believe that eventually talent will follow the money and that if there is money to be made in this hobby, young people will take it up.

As for what shops charge, the shop that is doing my car charges 48 bucks per hour. But, I'm up in no-where-ville Michigan. I'm curious to hear rates in other parts of the country.

 

[Finallygotmine]

Another factor not mentioned here is the overhead costs that real shops have to carry. They pay either rent or loan payments, utility coasts, advertising, payroll, taxes, benefits for their employees, supplies... they spend countless hours quoting jobs they might not get.
I lose track of how long things take on projects; sometimes the smallest task seems to take hours. If I was paying for a restoration from start to finish I would not be able to afford one! I try to do as much as possible and only farm out the things I cannot do myself.
The bottom line is I realize the costs involved with running a business and I don't expect a shop to do quality work for me for a dirt cheap price. On my current project I will farm out the soda blasting, finish body work and paint, and putting the vinyl top on. The rest I will do myself to keep the costs down.

You mean that a business is SUPPOSED to make a profit?? That's outrageous!! :jerk:

 

[Hemirunner]

You mean that a business is SUPPOSED to make a profit?? That's outrageous!! :jerk:

There are ALOT of people in this hobby that seem to think just that and from my experience, most don't have a clue what it takes to do it right. I've watch plenty of them do it twice, though!!

 

[Budnicks]

yep

There are ALOT of people in this hobby that seem to think just that and from my experience, most don't have a clue what it takes to do it right. I've watch plenty of them do it twice, though!!

:iamwithstupid: I laughed when I read that, especially the doing it twice part... God forbid they do it right the 1st time & have an outline for the build/costs...

 

[Bruzilla]

The underlined words in your post is part of the answer. The simple laws of supply and demand automatically make these cars more valuable. Anything of limited production, or timeless styling or superior performance will be saved, horded, copied, or emulated and over time these things will enjoy a resurgence in popularity. The fact that this country has had a renaissance love affair of classic muscle cars has been a good thing in my eyes.
The market is what it is. People will pay what they think they can get.
One odd thing that may be driving this market though, I believe, is that people do not trust the financial markets right now and are looking for an investment. Since housing used to be what people trusted and now don't, I think some people are investing in hard collectibles, Like classic cars.
I view it as a good thing, I believe that eventually talent will follow the money and that if there is money to be made in this hobby, young people will take it up.

As for what shops charge, the shop that is doing my car charges 48 bucks per hour. But, I'm up in no-where-ville Michigan. I'm curious to hear rates in other parts of the country.

I think Fla 66 Cuda is a bit more correct that you are. Supply and demand is one thing, but what we are dealing with more and more is an unrealistic expectation of the value added from that demand. I was just shopping for a set of sail panels on ebay last week. I found sets ranging from $400+ a pair, to $130 a pair, to $29 a pair. All in the same condition. What should these cost? There is no KBB prices for parts, so people can charge whatever they like for them. This pricing is totally inconsistent for a supply/demand pricing model where goods are priced at a point where demand is met for the highest consistent price. Since there several sets of panels selling for $30-$50, in a supply/demand market the price for these would be right about that price point. So what other than greed or misunderstanding the market causes someone to demand twelve times more for parts than someone else? Those $29 panels sold last night, to me, and I'll bet those more expensive panels will be on there until their sellers realize there's a huge difference between asking price and selling price.

I saw this stuff running rampant with E bodies and Hemi cars in the 1980s. The market price of a car would be $10,000. Then one would get run up to $20,000 at an auction (and just miss the reserve price... of course), then the market price would be $20,000. The demand didn't get any higher, and the supply didn't get any smaller, but something as bogus as a shill bidder could double the value/price of a car overnight. I'm guessing a lot of people are pricing parts and cars based on the highest prices they can find, without realizing those high-priced items aren't selling. This is a problem that gets compounded when an uninformed buyer pays way too much for something, and then tries to resell for way too much so they can get their money back. They're counting on the Bigger Sucker theory to save the day, and sadly... sometimes it does.