Don't make the same mistake I did

[BB BEEPER]

Heres my story.
I have a 400 motor, I bought a rotating kit to stroke the motor to 470. That all went fine.
The stroker kit has a steel crank, internally balanced, as my original crank was cast, externally balanced.
When I ordered a new torque converter from a supplier, (that we all know), he sold me a converter that had weights for a externally balanced cast crank. As I just finished this car, and NEVER drove it before the restoration, I started chasing this crazy vibration. I had several mechanics, other car nuts, try to find the problem. No one could find the problem, until I removed the inspection cover for the transmission and I saw the flexplate bolts were coming loose. So I removed them (yes, I had red locktite on them), and locktighted them again. I thought I would call the torque converter manufacturer, to get his input as to why these bolts were coming out. After discussing the problem with him we determined that I didn't have the right torque converter for my car/application. I needed to remove it and send it back. Now he didn't come right out and say that, he wanted me to send the torque converter back to him, have it upgraded for additional money, and then return it to me, all on my dime. I told him that I wasn't going to remove it and let the car sit until they refurbish my wrong torque converter. He then told me to grind off the weight that is on the torque converter for an externally balanced crank.
In summary, if you decide to change any component, make sure you speak to the manufacturer, not the salesman from the supplier. It seems that the suppliers are selling what they have available, not what you really need. They did this on more than one occasion.
1. motor mounts that don't fit, if you return them they offer you about 50% of what you paid.
2. U-joints that were used in a new box
3. Rear axle Dana 60 clutch plates
4. Front wheel bearings, that do not fit the rotors.

 

[MWbirdLOVER70]

Heres my story.
I have a 400 motor, I bought a rotating kit to stroke the motor to 470. That all went fine.
The stroker kit has a steel crank, internally balanced, as my original crank was cast, externally balanced.
When I ordered a new torque converter from a supplier, (that we all know), he sold me a converter that had weights for a externally balanced cast crank. As I just finished this car, and NEVER drove it before the restoration, I started chasing this crazy vibration. I had several mechanics, other car nuts, try to find the problem. No one could find the problem, until I removed the inspection cover for the transmission and I saw the flexplate bolts were coming loose. So I removed them (yes, I had red locktite on them), and locktighted them again. I thought I would call the torque converter manufacturer, to get his input as to why these bolts were coming out. After discussing the problem with him we determined that I didn't have the right torque converter for my car/application. I needed to remove it and send it back. Now he didn't come right out and say that, he wanted me to send the torque converter back to him, have it upgraded for additional money, and then return it to me, all on my dime. I told him that I wasn't going to remove it and let the car sit until they refurbish my wrong torque converter. He then told me to grind off the weight that is on the torque converter for an externally balanced crank.
In summary, if you decide to change any component, make sure you speak to the manufacturer, not the salesman from the supplier. It seems that the suppliers are selling what they have available, not what you really need. They did this on more than one occasion.
1. motor mounts that don't fit, if you return them they offer you about 50% of what you paid.
2. U-joints that were used in a new box
3. Rear axle Dana 60 clutch plates
4. Front wheel bearings, that do not fit the rotors.

Great advice and thank you

 

[1 Wild R/T]

When you ordered your torque convertor did you request a zero balance convertor? Or tell them your engine was a 400? Bearings don't fit your rotors? Are your spindles the same year of manufacture as the car? When we build these cars the way we do we need to adjust what we tell the parts counter person in order to get what we really need... It's not their fault they don't have the custom blueprints to your one off car...

 

[70chall440]

I agree with the above but I also understand what it is like building a car especially when this is a new endeavor. Many times you don't know what you don't know and tend to rely on vendors to steer you in the right path.

 

[BB BEEPER]

When you ordered your torque convertor did you request a zero balance convertor? Or tell them your engine was a 400? Bearings don't fit your rotors? Are your spindles the same year of manufacture as the car? When we build these cars the way we do we need to adjust what we tell the parts counter person in order to get what we really need... It's not their fault they don't have the custom blueprints to your one off car...

When I ordered the TQ, I gave them all the information that I stated earlier, 400 motor, 470 stroker kit, internal balance. They sold me what was on their shelf.
As to the brake rotors, they fit the car, but they didn't have any bearings in the new rotors, just the outer race, so I ordered those also.
As to your last comment go pound salt

 

[eldubb440]

did you remove the weight? did it fix the problem?

 

[BB BEEPER]

did you remove the weight? did it fix the problem?

Yes it did

 

[Cranky]

When I ordered the TQ, I gave them all the information that I stated earlier, 400 motor, 470 stroker kit, internal balance. They sold me what was on their shelf.
As to the brake rotors, they fit the car, but they didn't have any bearings in the new rotors, just the outer race, so I ordered those also.
As to your last comment go pound salt

C'mon man....maybe 1 Wild R/T didn't need to say what he did at the end but you certainly didn't need to say what you did...

 

[Don67Satellite]

 

[1 Wild R/T]

When we build these cars the way we do we need to adjust what we tell the parts counter person in order to get what we really need... It's not their fault they don't have the custom blueprints to your one off car...

When I ordered the TQ, I gave them all the information that I stated earlier, 400 motor, 470 stroker kit, internal balance. They sold me what was on their shelf.
As to the brake rotors, they fit the car, but they didn't have any bearings in the new rotors, just the outer race, so I ordered those also.
As to your last comment go pound salt

You clearly don't understand what I was trying to convey... Your dealing with a parts person who probably spends 90% of his/her day dealing with Chevies & Fords... You tell them you have a 400 block with a stroker crank they quite likely have no idea it's zero balanced...

Oh, wait... it's a supplier that we all know... Sorry, I have no idea who we all know... But I do know if you'd requested a zero balanced convertor you would likely have received a zero balance convertor... That's kinda how that works... Why convolute things with it's a 400 block & a stroker crank?

Hell You didn't spot it either, you just bolted the parts together & expected them to work... Yet if a "Mechanic" had done it he must be an idiot.... When we put together parts that were never intended to go together it's our responsibility to verify the details...

I have no idea what your working on so your rotors fitting is a plus.. But if it happens to be a 1970-71 with stock spindles there has been an error in the parts listings of numbers for the bearings & seals for at least thirty five years....

 

[mopar 3 B]

When I ordered the TQ, I gave them all the information that I stated earlier, 400 motor, 470 stroker kit, internal balance. They sold me what was on their shelf.
As to the brake rotors, they fit the car, but they didn't have any bearings in the new rotors, just the outer race, so I ordered those also.
As to your last comment go pound salt

Big mistake. You treated them as if they knew something. Next time give them a part number. No need for them to even know what it's for.

 

[MWbirdLOVER70]

Big mistake. You treated them as if they knew something. Next time give them a part number. No need for them to even know what it's for.

That does help I agree but I always there’s a Mopar guru behind the counter that lives the glory days

 

[BB BEEPER]

When we build these cars the way we do we need to adjust what we tell the parts counter person in order to get what we really need... It's not their fault they don't have the custom blueprints to your one off car...



You clearly don't understand what I was trying to convey... Your dealing with a parts person who probably spends 90% of his/her day dealing with Chevies & Fords... You tell them you have a 400 block with a stroker crank they quite likely have no idea it's zero balanced...

Oh, wait... it's a supplier that we all know... Sorry, I have no idea who we all know... But I do know if you'd requested a zero balanced convertor you would likely have received a zero balance convertor... That's kinda how that works... Why convolute things with it's a 400 block & a stroker crank?

Hell You didn't spot it either, you just bolted the parts together & expected them to work... Yet if a "Mechanic" had done it he must be an idiot.... When we put together parts that were never intended to go together it's our responsibility to verify the details...

I have no idea what your working on so your rotors fitting is a plus.. But if it happens to be a 1970-71 with stock spindles there has been an error in the parts listings of numbers for the bearings & seals for at least thirty five years....

Maybe I should have been clear with the supplier, it was Summit and they were on the phone with Hughes Torque converter manufacturer. They both questioned where the Stroker kit came from which was 440 Source. They all agreed that the stroker kit is a forged steel crank with internal balance. I dont think they even make an external balance stroker kit, but as we are talking about Mopars, so almost anything is possible. My concern, at that time, was finding a torque converter to handle the additional torque that a 470 motor would be putting on the tranmission, which I had rebuilt to hemi specs. If Hughes would have said when you get this torque converter grind off the triangle weight, I would have done that. What pissed me off was the fact that he NEVER mentioned that the flexplate bolts are coming loose because you have the wrong torque converter in there. It was shaking the **** out of those 5/16 bolts. My in the car vibration was around 2000 to 3500 rpm, with a 3.54 rear axle that is between 45 to 75 mph. Now your comment that any mechanic would have spotted it, keep in mind that the "butterfly" flexplates allow you to bolt the converter in without interference from the flexplate. The solid flexplate, that I just bought from 440Source, would have hit the triangle counterweight, and you would know right away something was not right. I bought the solid flexplate after 2 of the holes in the butterfly flexplate were slightly elongated from the loose bolts.
Now as to the brake rotors,I bought new front rotors, bearings,calipers and pads for my 1974 Roadrunner. If you have ever looked at a front rotor you would see that it has the outer race of the bearing already installed, but I didn't know that as I was thinking a bearing has an inner race, bearings and outer race, so I bought bearings to fit the rotors, all for the same car, all at the same time (had to wait three days). When I got the parts, we opened them up at the local parts store to check the fit, the parts counter guy could not believe how mis matched the parts were, the inner bearings were too small and the outer bearings were too big, the grease seals didn't fit either. He double checked all the numbers in his book, and said this has been happening alot since Covid interrupted the supply chain. I had one of the old rotors with me and we carefully removed the grease seal and inner bearing and tryed it in the new rotor, same with the smaller outer bearing and the grease seal, all fit like they should!
So the lesson here is if you want a Torque converter, call the manufacturer, make sure you have all the information that you need, including cam information as to the operating range of the cam. And yes I would recommend Hughes Torque converters, as they have people to help you might the right choice, or figure out what is wrong. As to the rotors, take the old ones with you.

Now I am going to sit and draw up custom blueprints for my car. Hahahhaah

 

[Davefinan]

The way I read the OP , he says right off, he made a mistake….he doesn’t want others to make the same mistake. I see no reason why anyone should harass him about anything he says he did after saying that upfront.

 

[1 Wild R/T]

Maybe I should have been clear with the supplier, it was Summit and they were on the phone with Hughes Torque converter manufacturer. They both questioned where the Stroker kit came from which was 440 Source. They all agreed that the stroker kit is a forged steel crank with internal balance. I dont think they even make an external balance stroker kit, but as we are talking about Mopars, so almost anything is possible. My concern, at that time, was finding a torque converter to handle the additional torque that a 470 motor would be putting on the tranmission, which I had rebuilt to hemi specs. If Hughes would have said when you get this torque converter grind off the triangle weight, I would have done that. What pissed me off was the fact that he NEVER mentioned that the flexplate bolts are coming loose because you have the wrong torque converter in there. It was shaking the **** out of those 5/16 bolts. My in the car vibration was around 2000 to 3500 rpm, with a 3.54 rear axle that is between 45 to 75 mph. Now your comment that any mechanic would have spotted it, keep in mind that the "butterfly" flexplates allow you to bolt the converter in without interference from the flexplate. The solid flexplate, that I just bought from 440Source, would have hit the triangle counterweight, and you would know right away something was not right. I bought the solid flexplate after 2 of the holes in the butterfly flexplate were slightly elongated from the loose bolts.
Now as to the brake rotors,I bought new front rotors, bearings,calipers and pads for my 1974 Roadrunner. If you have ever looked at a front rotor you would see that it has the outer race of the bearing already installed, but I didn't know that as I was thinking a bearing has an inner race, bearings and outer race, so I bought bearings to fit the rotors, all for the same car, all at the same time (had to wait three days). When I got the parts, we opened them up at the local parts store to check the fit, the parts counter guy could not believe how mis matched the parts were, the inner bearings were too small and the outer bearings were too big, the grease seals didn't fit either. He double checked all the numbers in his book, and said this has been happening alot since Covid interrupted the supply chain. I had one of the old rotors with me and we carefully removed the grease seal and inner bearing and tryed it in the new rotor, same with the smaller outer bearing and the grease seal, all fit like they should!
So the lesson here is if you want a Torque converter, call the manufacturer, make sure you have all the information that you need, including cam information as to the operating range of the cam. And yes I would recommend Hughes Torque converters, as they have people to help you might the right choice, or figure out what is wrong. As to the rotors, take the old ones with you.

Now I am going to sit and draw up custom blueprints for my car. Hahahhaah

FWIW my custom blueprints comment is based on the fact many of these cars came with drum brakes, we swap in parts from other cars, usually later model, though if you buy so many of the "kits" you might get Ford or GM parts adapted to fit...

Guys swap engines & transmissions, rear axles & suspension, brakes.. It all gets modified to improve how these cars drive.... So yeah, ya might have to tell the parts counter guy something other than the make & model of your car to get the parts you want...

Summit likely sells fifty GM parts for every Mopar part they sell... Don't expect them to know much if anything about your Mopar... You give them the part numbers & you'll get what you expect.......

As far as Hughes Convertors... Many folks know Hughes Engines is big on Mopar & so they assume Hughes knows Mopar... Unfortunately Hughes Convertors is a completely different company...

And if everyone agreed you need a neutral balance convertor but they sent you something else then ya, someone screwed up... Though I doubt it was because it's what they had on the shelf, they have lots of convertors to choose from & likely more zero/neutral balance than all the external balance units combined...
And on a positive note now that you know that huge weight on the convertor is for a cast crank you will recognize it when ever you see one in the future..

 

[1 Wild R/T]

The way I read the OP , he says right off, he made a mistake….he doesn’t want others to make the same mistake. I see no reason why anyone should harass him about anything he says he did after saying that upfront.

If you think my post is meant to harass then either you missed to intent or I failed to convey it... Either way the point is a guy at a parts counter has a tough job, if you are changing plugs on a 2015 Silverado they have you covered... Something from the 60's or 70's? Often as not, the computer is wrong... If the computer is right but the car is modified that's a whole other can of worms...

FWIW many of us deal with this **** every day... And then get beat up about what it costs to chase down the correct parts.... It takes time and experience to deal with this stuff... Neither is free...

You may not perceive it that way but the intent of my post was to be helpful... And for that I'm told to pound salt...

 

[Davefinan]

Yeah …..I get what you’re saying about modified cars and parts counter guys doin the best they can with the information given. I’m sure most here do.
My comment was specifically about what I said. A guy makes a mistakE , admits it , wants to warn people Seems like a noble as well as humble thing to do. Why be so hard on a dude like that…..

 

[Kern Dog]

Mistakes are a hard way to learn but if you’re smart, you remember and don’t do it again.
Sometimes time passes and we forget, then make the same mistakes again. I know that happens to me.
Successes and failures happen to guys that are actually active and out there doing things. Good for you, man. It would be a sad life just sitting on the couch while others are hip deep in the fun!

 

[Davefinan]

Mistakes are a hard way to learn but if you’re smart, you remember and don’t do it again.
Sometimes time passes and we forget, then make the same mistakes again. I know that happens to me.
Successes and failures happen to guys that are actually active and out there doing things. Good for you, man. It would be a sad life just sitting on the couch while others are hip deep in the fun!

100% !

 

[j-c-c-62]

I'm on a low salt diet, so I guess I will have to just stick to my blueprints.