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Fuel Injection Question

xlr8

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Hello All!!

I have a fuel injection question and I'm hoping to get some guidance from someone who has been through something similar.

I'm considering the purchase of a car that has a 6-pak. I want to drive this car and I don't want to have to monkey around with carb adjustments. Past experience has taught me multiple carbs, while very cool at the local crusie nights, are troublesome in the real world. Is it possible to keep the 6 pak intake/air cleaner while still adding fuel injection? I'm thinking the air cleaner is so big, quite a bit can be hidden under there and unless someone were to look closely, no one would be the wiser. I've seen it done with a 4bbl set up but was wondering if it could be done with a 6 pak or even a dual quad set up.

Of course I'd keep any parts that would need to be removed for originality purposes.

Any thoughts?
 
Depends on your definition of easy.
 
Perfect. It exists!!

Dennis - Can you elaborate on your comment?

I am in NO WAY a mechanic. I can do some things but when it comes to the complicated stuff, I have people. I would leave this conversion to my people. I've been criticized for this position in the past. Well, I brush my teeth but wouldn't attempt my own root canal. It's the same concept.
 
Fitech is hit and miss. 50/50 shot of you pulling all your hair out before your done with the conversion. My opinion,go to six pack school and learn them inside and out. They will treat you right.
 
Perfect. It exists!!

Dennis - Can you elaborate on your comment?

I am in NO WAY a mechanic. I can do some things but when it comes to the complicated stuff, I have people. I would leave this conversion to my people. I've been criticized for this position in the past. Well, I brush my teeth but wouldn't attempt my own root canal. It's the same concept.

I think Dennis means the same thing I have come to believe. It is easy to believe FI is easy and problem free. What I learned there is a lot of engineering behind a complete FI SYSTEM you don’t think about. The next cars I built I put carbs on them and live with the couple of things they get the bad wrap for, like hard starting after a heat soak. I can fix any fuel system problem on the side of the road and get parts anywhere for the carb cars. The FI one I am calling the tow truck then staring at the FITech unit deciding how to fix it. Send it back and wait weeks or buy a new one. So far it has worked ok but I think about it every time I go on a long trip with it.

Also auto tune is not a real thing for drivability. You will have to learn about tuning to get things like idle, off throttle and acceleration response dialed in. “Auto learn” is only a steady state cruising down the road thing. Also relying on that is a bad idea as if some thing goes bad like a o2 sensor if you do not have your fuel map dialed in close you can be running so bad it could damage the engine (too lean). I came to the conclusion carbs are what I want on my cars.
 
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I would swap the intake for a 4 bbl intake, tune something like a holly sniper or Fast throttle body EFI and swap the air cleaner for an oval 4BBl unit. At a glance you'd never know the difference unless you bend down and look under the air cleaner. This would probably be the least expensive and easiest install. Would have to be a dual plane intake for everything to fit properly.
 
Thanks for all your input. At this point, listening to the experience of others is valuable stuff! I've heard nightmares about the 6 paks. The last place I want to be is sitting alongside the road waiting for a tow because of a problem. I have a dual quad setup on another car (409 Chevrolet) and it too is problematic. I've found a simple 4 bbl is best. Maybe an intake swap is the way to go...
 
There’s another company that makes a 6 pak efi. Just don’t remember the name.
 
First off, Nebhal doesn't make anything, he only sells other peoples stuff (Holley, FAST, etc.) and what is being referred to here is the F&B system. You are MUCH better off buying straight from F&B than dealing with Rich.

I personally have 2 EFI 6 packs and am currently putting a Fitech "Tripower" system on a car for a client. I have run carb 6 packs since the late 70's so I am very familiar with both systems. Every time this subject comes up there is a onslaught of "don't do it" "learn the carbs" guys and while the carbs are not necessarily a bad thing they can (and usually do) create a lot of pain for someone not intimately familiar with them and someone who does not drive the vehicle frequently.

I am not hating on the carbs at all, I grew up with them and have a fondness for them but I will never run another one unless I were to somehow magically find myself with a numbers matching V code car (super highly unlikely) and even then I would still probably put EFI on it.

The main negatives for EFI are fuel system and electrical system changes/upgrades. EFI MUST have a solid capable fuel system which typically means new lines (feed and return), a new tank, etc. Yes there are work arounds and it can be done "on the cheap" but this (IMO) is not the way to go. If you are going EFI spend the money and time to develop a solid reliable fuel system. Additionally EFI DEMANDS a clean strong electrical system which many find to be the largest stumbling block. You cannot just throw a EFI system onto the car and get it to work without getting into the electrical system. You might get it to fire but you are going to have nothing but problems. Therefore you must take the time and spend the money to make the electrical system work with the EFI. This is not super difficult but it does require your factory system to be altered.

As to tuning, this is something the EFI haters love to complain about and throw red flags at. There are essentially 3 different systems out there; self tuning only, manual tuning only and self/manual tuning. Pretty much all of Fitech's stuff is self tuning only as in the FAST EZ 1.0 and many others. The Holley HP, Terminator, etc. systems are self/manual systems meaning that you can tune them (via a laptop) and they will self learn. While laptop tuning seems like "Black magic" it really isn't and many will find that once they get into it is actually easier than doing it the "old school" way.

The EFI system is only a piece of the puzzle, as stated there is also the fuel system and the electrical system but there is also the ignition system. In the EFI world there are basically 2 types of systems as it relates to the ignition; stand alone ignition (think factory systems) and integrated systems. What this means is that in the stand alone system you must set and manipulate the ignition (timing) manually just as you would have to with a carb based system. In an integrated system the ECU controls both spark and fuel (all EFI systems control fuel). An integrated system (like a Holley HP system with a Hall Effect distributor) is what most think of when they think about an EFI system and this type of system is tuned with a laptop but they also self learn.

Those who say or comment that "self learn" doesn't work has had experience with a problematic system. If the system is solid and working it will self learn and you can feel/see it happening, the more you drive the more it learns. You can feel the difference over a relatively short amount of time.

Lastly, an EFI 6 pack system is awesome BUT it is not a cheap endeavor if you are going to do it right/correct. That said the rewards (visual, reliability and drivability) are significant. Having said that EFI is not an "easy button", you still need to understand the basics (and more) just as you would have to with any classic car. A carb based 6 pack system is much simpler to be sure but I also know the frustration of having problems with them especially with todays fuel and what it does to them. So what I would say is this, if you are having some problems, send the carbs to someone like Scott Smith at Harms, have them rebuilt to a known condition (so you are not chasing demons). Find a source for "clear" fuel and only run that or at least only store the vehicle with that. However, if you want EFI then by all means go for it, they are great but they are not plug and play but they also are not magical or rocket science.

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F&B that’s who it is. Thanks to 70chall440!!
 
70chall440 - WOW. Thanks for taking the time to explain all that. I'm sure that took you quite some time to type out. Again at this point, all this information is great stuff!! I really appreciate everyone's thoughts and opinions!!
 
70chall440 - WOW. Thanks for taking the time to explain all that. I'm sure that took you quite some time to type out. Again at this point, all this information is great stuff!! I really appreciate everyone's thoughts and opinions!!

No problem, happy to try and help. I know that EFI is a source of issue on all of these classic car forums. For a long time I was one of those who didn't want anything to do with it because I didn't understand it. Then F&B came out with their 6 pack system and I was building my Cuda and subsequently decided I wanted to try it but it would be some time before I got around to installing that system. However, I did install another one onto my 70 Challenger (440 AT) and a Fitech system onto my 52 Dodge B3B (w/56 Desoto 330 Hemi).

I am by no means an EFI expert, there is a lot I don't know but I have installed 4 systems so far and have helped installed another 3-4. I am still learning the tuning aspect but I can definitely weigh in on the installation aspect.
 
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