I need some ideas.... Air in the brakes

[Magnes]

72 Satellite Sebring Plus - front disc brakes, rear drums

I bought this car that had been sitting up in dry storage for many years. I knew the brakes would need a lot of attention. I went through the whole front disc system. I have been waiting on the rear brake hose to come in, so I have not been able to work on them yet to determine their condition.

I just want to get the front disc brakes working so I can move the car from one spot to another, and when the rear brake parts arrive, I will then do the rear brakes.

I installed a new master cylinder, yes I bench bled it as best I could. I installed new calipers, pads, and hoses. I can bleed the passenger side front and the brake holds good... No air coming out - Just fluid.

The driver's side front though, I can not get the brake to grab at all. I have tried the new caliper, then I tried the old caliper... It bleeds down and then it just keeps shooting the same number of bubbles out, no matter what I do.

How can the passenger side front bleed out fine, but the driver's side not?

I have been trying this and that but I cannot get that front driver's side brake to grab at all... I've double checked the connections. There is no leaking brake fluid. I need some ideas. I have NEVER had so much trouble out of such a simple system.

 

[69a100]

You didn't say if you replaced the front hoses or not, did you? If not, that hose could be collapsed on the inside and not allow it to bleed. It will look normal on the outside regardless. How are you bleeding these procedure wise? Have you tried to have someone or take something to hold the brake pedal down while you pop open the bleeder? If so, what happens? You could also have some crud that could be blocking that hard line as well.

 

[Magnes]

I replaced the hose on the driver side. That is the side that is giving me the issue.

The other side (passenger side) (with the old hose) (new hose on order) bled out fine... not getting any air out of that passenger side, getting good brake fluid through, and the caliper is grabbing as it should.

Back to the driver side... I am getting good flow of brake fluid. I gravity bled that hard line - got a good quick, steady drip. Then hooked up new hose. Gravity bled that hose, got the same good quick, steady drip out of that line. Installed new crush washer at the caliper. New bleeders (one the old caliper and tried the new caliper which also has a new bleeder).

I have tried using my mighty vac (but I didn't like using it and was unsuccessful) so I got a friend to help. I attached a small hose to the bleeder, draped it into a clear jar with brake fluid in it then I would crack open the bleeder, have him push down pedal, then close bleeder, have him let the pedal up - we did this same method on the passenger side and it bled out fine. But the driver side, towards the end of the downward pedal stroke, I get about 10 good sized bubbles... I have run at least a quart of brake fluid through that line but almost every down stroke I get those same 10 bubbles. The caliper is not grabbing the rotor.

Other things I did while I had all this apart (but that should not matter) is, new inner and out wheel bearings and races, repacked rotor with grease as specified in FSM. Had rotors turned - They are both good rotors, well within tolerances.

I just can't get that drivers side to quit spitting air and grab.

 

[69a100]

With all the fluid pumped through your master and system should be bled. The only thing I can think of is the Bleeder at the highest point on the caliper? If so, I'm out of ideas without seeing what you got. I'm sure others will chime in, Good Luck.

 

[Magnes]

Yes, the bleeder is at the top of the caliper on both the calipers I've tried.

I appreciate you taking the time to work with me. I am all out of ideas too. That's why I am here, resorting to ask for help with something as simple as the brakes, lol. I have gotten cars out of fields that had no brakes, or lines, rebuilt the whole system, bled it all down in a half hour and never had an issue... This thing is trying my patience.

There just has to be some sort of a leak somewhere and it is sucking in air. I can't imagine the new master is bad if the other side works fine. I can't imagine that both the old AND the new caliper are sucking in air. It just does not make sense... This job is too easy to be kicking my a** like it is.

 

[kb67mopar]

i would say bad master.

 

[AMX364]

My only other idea is to check the steel brake line for rust damage.
edit: try using the old copper washers also. I have had the new sealing washers not seal before.

 

[Beekeeper]

the easist way to bleed the master (on the car) is with two short pieces of hard line, bend them so when attached they are down in the resevior fill with fluid and pump until no bubbles come out.
on the bubbles in the bleed hose at the caliper it very well could be pulling air in right at the bleeder screw around the threads. i would try bleeding the master again with the method i described and bleed both fronts again

 

[69Bee]

The one variable that seems to be overlooked is the caliper. If the passenger side bleeds fine, the master is good. The master splits front and rear, not side to side. Just because the caliper is new/rebuilt, with emphasis on rebuilt, does not mean it is not defective. You seem to have done everything else you can, and to me, the caliper is suspect. Return it as defective, and get another one.

 

[Propwash]

it very well could be pulling air in right at the bleeder screw around the threads

That's a good point! Fought that battle one myself (shitty tap job into the caliper). If air is getting in your line, obviously it is displacing fluid somewhere to do it. Simple terms, there would be fluid leaking somewhere. My guess would be; being it's at the end of your pump and not visible leaking anywhere, i'd guess the bleeder area. Good luck.

 

[67 coronet]

what sort of diverter valve/prop valve are you using?could be a prob there since that is where the lines first split left to right.

 

[Magnes]

Alright Beekeeper. I went ahead and made some lines and re-bled that master cylinder in the car. That is a good way to do it. I appreciate the tip. Snagged some old lines off my parts car and got a couple bubbles out of the master using that method.

I also took out the bleeders and wrapped them in Teflon tape before re-bleeding the both front brakes.

Again, the passenger side bled out nice and when finished, it grabs the rotor perfectly - as it was doing before.

Then I bled the driver's side again and this time I got to a point where I was not getting anymore air out of it BUT it still would not grab. So, I got on the phone and am going to pick up another driver's side caliper. I should be able to pick that up this evening and if there's time, I will slap it on and bleed it. Hopefully it will solve this problem.

And 67Coronet, I am using the stock prop valve. This car came with disc/dums so it should be the appropriate one. There's no leak there. So I dunno.

 

[Magnes]

Still didn't work. Tried to re-bleed the pass side since I had opened the system to change the drivers side caliper and all I got was bubbles. After bleeding and bleeding it I tried the driver's side and got constant bubbles. This thing is making me crazy. Had to call it a night because my frustration level has gone through the roof.

I keep replacing parts that I replaced. Something is screwy.

 

[Photon440]

Why was it that the mighty vac was unsuccessful?

 

[Magnes]

Here's my issue with the mighty vac... It may be a great tool if your system is acting right but this thing isn't. I'm pumping this thing 50,000 times to build up vacuum and it's constantly bubbling on me so I'm trying to bleed it down, I've got this tiny sippy cup sized receptacle for the brake fluid filling up constantly so I have to stop every minute or so and empty the thing out. It's just way easier to do it the old fashioned way with a tube and a glass jar that will hold about a quart of fluid. I don't end up with brake fluid all over my hands and more steps to deal with.

For some reason the whole system acts different when I'm bleeding it the old fashioned way. It doesn't make sense. Really, not much of this problem makes sense to me.

I'm to the point where I think I will just pay someone else to come look at the darn thing. I have tried this, tried that, done this, re-done that, bled it this way, bled it that way, re-bled it, checked everything and still have no brake. I need a fresh set of eyes on it.

 

[Jim Bob The Dancing Bear]

So the master, line from master to block, block, line from block to passanger side, hose to passanger side caliper, and passanger caliper are good.

For the driver side that would leave the line from block to hose, hose, and caliper. The hose is new but could leak. Did you try the old hose? The new caliper, new new caliper, and old caliper all do the same. That leaves the hard line or the hose.

When you are bleeding either side I am assumeing the pettle will build up a decent amount of pressure. Will it hold that pressure or bleed off as you sit there straining?

 

[kb67mopar]

I say leave it alone until the rest of your brake parts come in. Get the system put completely together and bleed the complete system so there is no chance the master is pulling air from the rear line. If that fails then its clearly the master cylinder. The piston could be pulling air from somewhere, one of the seals etc. and it could push air it only when you apply the pedal and would be why it doesn't leak.

But without a system that is sealed up on all 4 corners it makes no sense to bleed the brakes.

 

[Magnes]

Well as I understood it, the front disc and rear drums act as 2 separate systems and that is why I was trying to bleed out the fronts... So I could move the car under it's own power and load it on a trailer. Have another incoming project. This car has to go to storage for a couple months.

I will just wait and the parts for the rears should be here this weekend. I will do the rears and try to bleed again.

 

[67 coronet]

i honestly dont see how a master could cause bubbles on one side and not the other up front.so the only piece it sounds like you have not replaced is the prop valve?why not switch it out too at this point.i have seen those things fail and cause some really weird brake conditions,not like yours persay,but still plenty weird.

 

[idrivemopar]

Does the 72 have a proportioning valve? Maybe an issue there if one of the valves is stuck somehow no allowing the fluid to hold the drivers side caliper or letting air into the system. Just a thought as I didn't see any mention of checking that item in the thread.