I'm Stumped.. Timing?

[Mopar-Charger]

I need help i've tried everything...

I have a 360, dual plane, 750 cfm, headers, mild cam, 727 torqueflite

First off where do i set timing? I have a timing light. I have 10, 0, -10 marks. where between those marks do i place the dash? I've tried nearly everywhere, currently it's at -5 roughly, runs like ****. Hates the cold mornings.

Secondly kick down linkage: my new Holley has a larger throw than my Edelbrock. Now I have a 1/2inch gap before the throttle engages with the linkage. I have to do this to obtain WOT with the kick down stopping it short. However it takes forever to get moving at a stop light, so i put a bolt in the 1/2inch gap. which seemed to fix it, but it now cant reach WOT.

Also feels as if the tranny isn't full engaging? RPMs climb but the car feels slow and sluggish. (used to have no problem getting up and going)

Third problem is flow. I have cutouts which give me an amazing 3500-5500 RPMS but I lack the low end. When I run exhaust I can't keep traction from 1000-4000 RPMs then performance plummets over 4k. What should i do to get the best performance? I have Long Tubes - 3inch - 40 series flowmasters - 2 inch. Again i have a tall gear in the back I shift 1-2 at around 50 MPH (5500RPMS)


One last thing, my power steering pump pulley belt whines? I've replaced the gear and pump but there is still the problem. Sounds like a dying whale when I get on the gas, will this harm my performance? I can see the belt moving, but the pulley is still.

Thank you in advanced,

Jake

 

[Kern Dog]

I need help i've tried everything...

I have a 360, dual plane, 750 cfm, headers, mild cam, 727 torqueflite

First off where do i set timing? I have a timing light. I have 10, 0, -10 marks. where between those marks do i place the dash? I've tried nearly everywhere, currently it's at -5 roughly, runs like ****. Hates the cold mornings.

Secondly kick down linkage: my new Holley has a larger throw than my Edelbrock. Now I have a 1/2inch gap before the throttle engages with the linkage. I have to do this to obtain WOT with the kick down stopping it short. However it takes forever to get moving at a stop light, so i put a bolt in the 1/2inch gap. which seemed to fix it, but it now cant reach WOT.

Also feels as if the tranny isn't full engaging? RPMs climb but the car feels slow and sluggish. (used to have no problem getting up and going)

Third problem is flow. I have cutouts which give me an amazing 3500-5500 RPMS but I lack the low end. When I run exhaust I can't keep traction from 1000-4000 RPMs then performance plummets over 4k. What should i do to get the best performance? I have Long Tubes - 3inch - 40 series flowmasters - 2 inch. Again i have a tall gear in the back I shift 1-2 at around 50 MPH (5500RPMS)


One last thing, my power steering pump pulley belt whines? I've replaced the gear and pump but there is still the problem. Sounds like a dying whale when I get on the gas, will this harm my performance? I can see the belt moving, but the pulley is still.

Thank you in advanced,

Jake

Well Jake, with a long list like this it seems like you'd better get comfortable and stay awhile. Plenty to learn and understand.
I would strongly suggest that you buy an actual Factory Service Manual for the exact model year of your car. There are specific sections and drawings in those manuals that you'll never find in a Chiltons or Haynes manual you see at the local auto parts stores. Check ebay or even the online forum classifieds like here. The info within these books is fantastic.
There are a few ways to set ignition timing. If the engine is stock or pretty close to it, the procedure listed in the factory manual or most any other will be simple. They tell you to block the vacuum line that runs to the distributor and let the engine idle in PARK or Neutral and point the gun at the numbered tab on the timing cover. A 360 has it behind the power steering pump on the LEFT side of the car. remember, LEFT means DRIVER side. From all points forward, LEFT and RIGHT are correctly identified as if you are standing at the rear of the car looking forward.
With the engine idling, point the flashing strobe at the timing cover and balancer. At idle the number should be in the 10-13 degrees BTDC range. Less than that and you are giving away power.

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Holley carburetors require the use of an adapter to allow proper operation of the Mopar throttle cable and trans kickdown. When you just connect the cable and KD brackets, the amount of travel the Holley allows is too much. The result is your car gets LESS than full throttle. Try holding the gas pedal to the floor and let a buddy see if the carburetor will open even more. I'll bet that it will. Again, this is costing you power especially at the top end.

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Do NOT drive the car until you get that throttle bracket. The transmissions in these cars NEEDS a properly working kickdown linkage for the trans to work and to LAST. The KD linkage determines upshift points, downshift points and the amount of fluid pressure the internals will get at all points of operation. Running around with it out of adjustment causes rapid wear and overheating of the trans. It may shift too hard or too soft, it may slip, it may rpm up high during the 1-2 or 2-3 shift.... it needs to be working correctly. That Holley throttle bracket I suggested allows correct GAS pedal operation AND trans linkage fitment.

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Finally,
If the car feels sluggish at the start, it is probably due to two things that I see. First would be the timing setting. A 5 degrees AFTER TDC is waaaaay off the mark! The engine, any Mopar engine, will run much better at 5 degrees or MORE before TDC. Second problem with your car is axle gearing. If you are actually able to get it to 50 mph in 1st gear, you MUST be running the stock 2.76 or 2.71 gearing. This is great for a stock engine to cruise across the interstate but not great for fast acceleration from a stop. Axle gears work as a miltiplier of engine power. The tall gears like the 2.71/2.76 do not multiply the power like a 3.23 or a 3.55 will. The lower (Higher numbered) gears help get the car moving faster but also mean the car will be spinning a faster rpm at every point...35-40-45, etc. If you are mainly concerned with making the car quicker with little concern with top end speed of fuel economy, a gear swap makes sense. I didn't see the axle type you have in the car but if you have a 73 Charger, you likely have the 8 1/4" axle. Gears and replacement parts are out there. The 8 1/4" axle was used from 1968 to 2004 or 2005. The Dakota trucks used the same 8 1/4" axle and internal parts until 1997 or so. I once pulled a 3.55 axle from a Dakota 4x4. It had a limited slip differential. I had my axle guy swap it into an 8 1/4" axle for my 73 Duster. It cost $100 for the axle and around $100 to swap the gears in... a fraction of what it would cost new. I was out laying equal tire marks for $200 compared to around $650 for new parts!

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"One last thing, my power steering pump pulley belt whines? I've replaced the gear and pump but there is still the problem. Sounds like a dying whale when I get on the gas, will this harm my performance? I can see the belt moving, but the pulley is still."

Your pump is dead or dying. They are not expensive to replace. Used ones are common too. 72-88 trucks use a very similar setup. Junkyards can be a great source.

 

[Mopar-Charger]

Couldn't thank you enough for being so detailed. Tonight once I get my light back from a friend I'm going to fix the timing.

For the transmission, even when i had the linkage setup by the transmission shop (rebuilt the tranny) it still had a long soft shift 1-2, then slipped and reved up 2-3 at WOT.

Pulley sounds about right, been having problems left and right. Replaced it about a month ago with a reman part.

Thank you again. I really appreciate you taking the time and explaining it.

Jake

 

[1wild&crazyguy]

Holley throttle bracket for chrysler, get one.
set the kickdown so that with WOT the kickdown lever is all the way back.

on the timing...get the engine warm, then raise the initial timing up till the engine fights the starter/kicks back, once it does...drop the timing back 2 degrees from where it's at and make a note, probably end up around 20-24 degrees initial, then find a way 'depending on the distributor you have' to limit the total adavance/mechanical advance to about 34 degrees. you can weld advance slots in the plate or if you have a an MSD distributor you can make yourself a an advance bushing. Doing the above will help the low end power, all around throttle response and without the tiny exhaust band aid ya got now...as well as help with keeping the throttle blades where they need to be in regards to idel mix adjustment....you could be idling on the mains for all we know at this point.

As for the exhaust....2 inch is killing your higher rpm power. You need at least 2 1/2 or 3 out the back.

Back pressure is only helping the power below the cams rpm range...after that it's hurting it!

 

[Mopar-Charger]

23 degrees initial timing? The guy earlier said 12-13? I have it at 15 now and it seems to run fine. Should I try to adjust it to a higher advanced?

Thanks for getting back to my with the exhaust, I'm going to look into some new mufflers.

 

[69a100]

23 degrees initial timing? The guy earlier said 12-13? I have it at 15 now and it seems to run fine. Should I try to adjust it to a higher advanced?

You can if you want, 15 is a good start, 20 might be to much. If you get detonation at 20, just dial it back 2* at a time till it stops. This of course after you get the linkage worked out. Good luck

 

[Kern Dog]

"23 degrees initial "

Forget that. SOME people in these online forums forget that many members like you have mild engines that do not need "race" advice like that. His point applied to a much more radical setup than you have. In his mind, you have a super radical lopey idle and a huge camshaft. In that situation, the engine needs a LOT of initial advance at idle to make up for the inefficiency that a big cam has at low rpms. The engines then need 20 degrees or more at idle but then have to be limited (By modifying the internals of the distributor) to 33-34 degrees TOTAL from say...3000 rpms to redline of 6500+. That isn't correct for your application at all. 15 degrees at idle may be the outer limits because once the rpms come up, the distributor adds more advance, maybe putting yout total to near 40 degrees. Most Mopar engines make the most power with a total advance of between 33-36 degrees total. Running more than than often results in knocking/pinging/detonation on even premium gas. You can dump in some 100 octane fuel but for the most part, running past 36 degrees of total timing does not result in more power.

 

[dieseldazzle]

Pull vacuum advance off when setting initial timing otherwise you could end up with 20 degrees plus which is still ok for 99% of street cars

 

[Mopar-Charger]

"23 degrees initial "

Forget that. SOME people in these online forums forget that many members like you have mild engines that do not need "race" advice like that. His point applied to a much more radical setup than you have. In his mind, you have a super radical lopey idle and a huge camshaft. In that situation, the engine needs a LOT of initial advance at idle to make up for the inefficiency that a big cam has at low rpms. The engines then need 20 degrees or more at idle but then have to be limited (By modifying the internals of the distributor) to 33-34 degrees TOTAL from say...3000 rpms to redline of 6500+. That isn't correct for your application at all. 15 degrees at idle may be the outer limits because once the rpms come up, the distributor adds more advance, maybe putting yout total to near 40 degrees. Most Mopar engines make the most power with a total advance of between 33-36 degrees total. Running more than than often results in knocking/pinging/detonation on even premium gas. You can dump in some 100 octane fuel but for the most part, running past 36 degrees of total timing does not result in more power.

I have a pretty heavy loping cam 509" lift. I'm going to put the timing at about 20 degrees then back it off 2* at a time like they were saying earlier. I can't get 100 octane, so it may be more retarded like you said.

Pull vacuum advance off when setting initial timing otherwise you could end up with 20 degrees plus which is still ok for 99% of street cars

So i should have 15-20 degree without vacuum, then plug vacuum in and it goes up? still ok?

Thanks,
Jake

 

[themechanic]

Check your pulley alignment with the others. Misaligned pulley will squeal.

Posted via Topify on Android

 

[Kern Dog]

'so i should have 15-20 degree without vacuum, then plug vacuum in and it goes up?

There should be no vacuum advance at idle but the suggestion is to remove the vac line anyway. The stock setup consists of a vacuum line from the distributor to a "ported" vacuum nipple. This is a nipple mounted in the metering block, NOT at the base of the carb. The idea is to have the additional ignition advance occur as you are cruising down the road, not at idle. The vacuum advance goes to ZERO at wide open throttle and at idle. It only works at part throttle.

 

[dieseldazzle]

there will be vacuum advance at idle I don't know what kern is talking about unless he means ported vacuum versus manifold which makes no sense to me for idle quality So remove the vac line going to the dizzy otherwise you will show easy 15-20degrees of initial. Once you remove the vac line you will see the timing go away and can set base timing that's the reason in every manual on the planet you block the vac advance line or remove it completely

 

[Kern Dog]

"there will be vacuum advance at idle I don't know what kern is talking about unless he means ported vacuum versus manifold "

For stock or slightly hotter than stock engines, the engine is best running solely on base timing at idle. NO vacuum is present to the distributor with the vac line connected to a ported source.This is how the factory set up the car. Once the driver speeds up and is on the carburetor primary circuit, the PORTED source opens and advances the timing with the vacuum can on the side of the distributor. Again, this is how the factory did it. This is needed because an engine at cruise speeds needs more timing to efficiently burn the mixture.The factory had to strike a balance of power, fuel economy and emission standards. I've known people that run manifold vacuum all the time but I've never been a fan of it. The timing fluctuates too much at idle since vacuum is lower at that speed with especially with a bigger cam than stock. The instability of the timing at idle makes for crappy idle quality and surging/lurching.

 

[Mopar-Charger]

Check your pulley alignment with the others. Misaligned pulley will squeal.

Posted via Topify on Android

It was exactly that! Thank you, now I won't get a headache driving to work.

"there will be vacuum advance at idle I don't know what kern is talking about unless he means ported vacuum versus manifold which makes no sense to me for idle quality So remove the vac line going to the dizzy otherwise you will show easy 15-20degrees of initial. Once you remove the vac line you will see the timing go away and can set base timing that's the reason in every manual on the planet you block the vac advance line or remove it completely "

SO ported to manifold vacuum? Everyone says different, but which for the best performance? SC doesn't have emissions laws.

 

[dieseldazzle]

First off yes the factory did use ported vacuum and if your engine is stock or mild its a wash rather you use it or not, but definitely use vacuum advance in some form on your street car. Im not trying to argue any points here other than to use vacuum advance in SOME form on your street car you will be happier in the long run. That said:

There is huge debate with regards to ported or manifold vacuum. Ported vacuum was used to raise the temperature at idle and lower NOx. Manifold vacuum will allow lower idle temps (combustion) I am telling you what I have used. Id use manifold vacuum not ported vacuum. Most vac canisters dont do squat until 8-10 inches anyway. Idle quality will greatly improve with manifold vacuum and 15-20 degrees, try it and see. Why wouldnt you want to clean up your idle if nothing else than for the sake of the folks sitting in your car with you lol.

Great info here in this post.