Indy aluminum wedge block users

[W8avenger]

Step in and help figure out how to cure losing oil pressure going down track.
Helping a friend out after last weekend at Lebanon Valley.
Startup cold 85 psi and drops quick going down track.
At the finish line oil pressure is 33-35 psi and going down return road is 18-20 psi at 1550-1800 rpm.
Motor has pushrod oiling and non bushed lifter bores.

 

[mentor70]

until i read the post completely, i was going to say look at the possibility of the main caps getting pushed out of the block at high RPMS, but the pressure would recover after the run when the load was off.

 

[lewtot184]

not trying to sound silly but have you tried a different gauge to verify the pressure readings?

 

[Hemirunner]

I would say pushrod oiling with non bushed bores would be a huge oil hemorrhage especially on an aluminum block. Did he have indy drill it or rig up some other means of oiling the lifters? I'm betting all his oil is in the heads or the valley in short order.

 

[W8avenger]

not trying to sound silly but have you tried a different gauge to verify the pressure readings?

From what I saw in his car, he has 3 oil pressure gauges.
1 Autometer electric gauge
1 Autometer mechanical gauge
1 Racepak electric gauge.

I saw it with my own eyes. All 3 gauges read the same.
He let the car sit for 1/2 hour to cool down and got 78 psi with warm oil, back up to the starting line and he had 65 psi. Crossing the stripe at 33-36 psi.

He's looking for a cure. He has had bad luck with this engine builder now on 3 aluminum motors from him. He shot himself in the foot doing business with him. The engine builder has no clue on how to build an aluminum mopar engine.

 

[mopar 3 B]

Sound like a severe case of oil starvation. Would think that even with unbushed lifters and gushing oil on the return trip at lower rpms pressure should build instead of dropping. Is this a wet or dry sump?

 

[IQ52]

Big time thermal expansion on the mains in an aluminum block. You have to set the clearances tight and let the block warm up carefully, then put the load to it. Never seen a problem with loosing too much oil through unbushed lifter bores.

Now I have lost a lot of oil pressure with pressure feed pin oilers in roller lifters as the engine warms up. If they gun drilled the block to get oil by the lifters and up through the pushrods that could be a problem. Then bushed lifter bores with a small oil feed hole could help.

Pull the intake manifold and prime the engine with a drill motor and see what the oiling looks like to the lifters and top of the engine.

 

[Challenger340]

Might help to know the type and weight of Oil being used ? Dino or Syn ?
What were the bearing clearances used in the build ?

From what you are describing, obviously related to heat as the Engine warms ? It would also be useful to know actual oil "Temps" vrs coolant Temps ?

 

[W8avenger]

Might help to know the type and weight of Oil being used ? Dino or Syn ?
What were the bearing clearances used in the build ?

From what you are describing, obviously related to heat as the Engine warms ? It would also be useful to know actual oil "Temps" vrs coolant Temps ?

I'll get that information from him and get back to you on that.
I do know he drained the oil at the track and he did say he went from 5W-30 Brad Penn to 20W50 Brad Penn and it went up 5 psi overall but the return road he was still at 18-20 psi. He's freaking pissed off at the **** job the engine builder did on 3 of his new aluminum engines. All junk.

 

[Hemirunner]

Big time thermal expansion on the mains in an aluminum block. You have to set the clearances tight and let the block warm up carefully, then put the load to it. Never seen a problem with loosing too much oil through unbushed lifter bores.

Now I have lost a lot of oil pressure with pressure feed pin oilers in roller lifters as the engine warms up. If they gun drilled the block to get oil by the lifters and up through the pushrods that could be a problem. Then bushed lifter bores with a small oil feed hole could help.

Pull the intake manifold and prime the engine with a drill motor and see what the oiling looks like to the lifters and top of the engine.

Depending on which lifter they used, with an unbushed bore, the cutout in the lifter exposes the galley using some high lift cams. Now if the guy sized them at .906 in an aluminum block with the typical .9035 lifter body, the lifter clearance could be pushing .005 at temperature. My real point was that he's pumping the oil everywhere except the mains but I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know. We've done a bunch of aluminum block builds and they get treated much differently. I even like pinning the cam bearings in the them. It helps me sleep better at night! lol

 

[W8avenger]

Oil temp is 160 and water temp at starting line water temp is 110-115 degrees.

 

[glassman]

I had the same problem a while back. I always ran a straight 50 weight with no problems and when the engine builder found out about the 50 weight, he threw a fit and made me change to 20w 50. That is when the problem started. 10 pounds pressure through the finish line. I drained it right there and put more straight 50 in and never had any more problems. After 18 years that short block will be coming apart for new rings and bearings at the end of the season. This is in my old school ss/aa hemi cuda. Right oil matters.

 

[IQ52]

The temperatures seem odd to me. My problem is I cannot get my oil temperature up to my water temperature without a loooong warm up.

 

[dvw]

The temperatures seem odd to me. My problem is I cannot get my oil temperature up to my water temperature without a loooong warm up.

I agree. Even with a diaper on the pan it's hard to get much over 150 degrees oil temp in a drag motor. Though I don't have a Indy block mine had a similar issue after I built it. Even tightening the bearing clearance didn't help. My lifter bores are bushed but are loose at .002". My motor is pushrod oiled. The pushrods were .093" they're now restricted to .040". HUGE difference. Most people feed Indy heads with a .040" restrictor in 2 lines. Mine had 16 .093" holes in the pushrods, do the math. Thick oil is NOT the answer. 10W50 hot is the SAME as 50W hot, just WAY to thick cold. It only creates restriction that reduces flow. Get the internal leaks under control. Use thinner oil. Your bearings will thank you.
Doug

 

[SUPERSTOCKRACER]

I agree. Even with a diaper on the pan it's hard to get much over 150 degrees oil temp in a drag motor. Though I don't have a Indy block mine had a similar issue after I built it. Even tightening the bearing clearance didn't help. My lifter bores are bushed but are loose at .002". My motor is pushrod oiled. The pushrods were .093" they're now restricted to .040". HUGE difference. Most people feed Indy heads with a .040" restrictor in 2 lines. Mine had 16 .093" holes in the pushrods, do the math. Thick oil is NOT the answer. 10W50 hot is the SAME as 50W hot, just WAY to thick cold. It only creates restriction that reduces flow. Get the internal leaks under control. Use thinner oil. Your bearings will thank you.
Doug

Who's pushrods do you have Doug?
I have Trends in mine and I need to restrict them. Will Trend restrict them for me?. If so,i'll pull mine out this weekend if I don't go to Englishtown to race.

 

[Hemirunner]

I would pull it apart given the issues it has had and make sure the lower end is good. Some of these statements and temps would lead me to believe that a bearing could be hurt. Decide then if you're going to restrict it from the feed galleys as discussed in your thread on the bullet or if you're going to restrict the pushrods and then bolt it back together. While you had it apart, you could also check clearances. Too many unknowns here with an expensive piece.

 

[SUPERSTOCKRACER]

I would pull it apart given the issues it has had and make sure the lower end is good. Some of these statements and temps would lead me to believe that a bearing could be hurt. Decide then if you're going to restrict it from the feed galleys as discussed in your thread on the bullet or if you're going to restrict the pushrods and then bolt it back together. While you had it apart, you could also check clearances. Too many unknowns here with an expensive piece.

Motor is coming out this weekend if it rains. Restricting it from the feed galleys might be the best route, but if the bearings don't look good i'll bush the lifter bores and open up the drain back holes.

 

[74Beeper]

Did Ken at Indy build this motor or is it a different builder?

 

[SUPERSTOCKRACER]

Did Ken at Indy build this motor or is it a different builder?

Vignogna Racing Engines built this engine. Jimmy Vignogna, he never built an aluminum engine before. He ruined all 3 of mine in one year. He has no clue on aluminum motors.

 

[74Beeper]

Oh yeah..... I read a different thread on here about him. Sounds like a shady dude......