Just another BB cam question

[Ray70Chrg]

I've been reading and learning a lot about cams, lifters, and other valve related parts. I'm completely blown away by the knowledge and expertise by some of you on this site. I will never reach that level, but hope to gain enough knowledge to have a good understanding of what's involved. I'm at the level now of sorting thru the vendors and seeing what's available for my 70 charger 383 magnum. One thing that stands out immediately is the price range of these items. Kits are available from $130-420,with Summit on the low side and Mopar Perf on the hi end. I have ordered from Summit on many occasions and have been very satisfied with the product and service, however, I'm being scared away by the low price. The cam alone goes for $78. "You get what you pay" for has always been a guide line when buying stuff.

Has anyone used the Summit line of cam shafts and lifters and if so, what was your experience. Thanks

 

[Kern Dog]

First off, Mopar Performance is a WAY overpriced brand. They use multiple vendors to make their parts so it isn't like "Mopar" is making the cams, the lifters or even the box that they come in. Their cams can make power but there are newer designs that make the same or more with greater mileage and improved driveability.
Comp Cams.
Lunati Cams.
Bullet Cams.
I would be wary of a $78 cam ! I'd be just as leery of cheap lifters. I use Johnson solids in my Charger.

 

[Ray70Chrg]

Thanks Kern. I have been looking at those companies also and leaning toward the Lunati Voodo right now.

 

[33 IMP]

I agree with Kern Dog. I have used both the .557 and .590 purple shaft solid cam and lifter kits, but paid under $200 for each. $440 is an insane ripoff, I couldn't believe they are trying to charge that.
The summit cam is a very old Chevy grind on a bb chrysler core. Slow, safe, quiet ramps. I don't know about the durability, or the lifters.
My next cam will be a Lunati voodoo, but all of Kern's recce are good.
A few companies have cams ground specifically for the larger mopar lifters, can be more aggressive under the curve than a Chevy grind for the same advertised duration.

 

[wyrmrider]

IMP
A grind for the chrysler lifter can have the same "aggression" as a chevy yet get more benefit simply because of the diameter of the lifter and starting off at a larger radius even with both starting at the same distance (chord) from the edge
likewise either can be more aggressive for a race only hyd or solid, or less aggressive for a street or endurance grind
Even when not as "fast acting" as a chevy profile a mopar profile can have more lift (area under the curve) than the chevy or
can have the same area under the curve at the same or less lift and less duration
don't put a chevy cam in your mopar (or the Summit or other "white box' cams although they are well made and cheap)
aside from that I agree with 33 IMP 100%

 

[33 IMP]

@wyrmrider ,you just said better what I was trying to say. More area under the curve and lift available for the same duration, because of the larger lifter.

 

[Ray70Chrg]

Thank you all for your comments. I'm interested in your thoughts on the lunati Factory performance 278/288 cam vs voodoo 262/268. T

 

[wyrmrider]

It depends
If you have a factory six pack or high compression motor that particular voodoo may be too small
but the factory cam is long and lazy with a really lone closing ramp and wide lobe centers
which gives a late intake close -which holds down dynamic compression
and has an early exhaust open which robs mile age and power

and a late exhaust close which makes it run hot and dilutes the intake charge
need I go on?
but first post up your gears, converter a compression test and how you want to drive it
some more details on your build
given what we have I'd go with the Lunati Voodoo IF 262 is the right number in the first place

 

[threewood]

You can also check out Hughes and ask about their cams. I'm running a solid lifter cam of theirs which I am happy with.

The engine builders on here can give you great advice with some info about your car. Weight, rear end, trans, tires, heads, intake, weight, etc.

 

[Ray70Chrg]

Thank you both for your replies. The car has stock automatic, 3.55 diff open, I believe the converter is the original 10 in. stock. Some history on it is I've had it for 4 years now and it's been driven lightly for past 10 months. Prior to me buying it, it sat in a garage for 15 years. I took all necessary precautions before ever trying to start it. Compression testing last month was good ranging from 170 to 155, dry tested. Car has great idle, not blowing any smoke and trans is operating normally. Engine does have what seems to be lifter noise and my next move is to remove valve covers and check adjustments. A couple of months ago I did find what appears to be valve stem seal material in the oil suction strainer but did not know if this was a past problem and had been rectified. Oil pressure has been very good ever since I started the engine 3 1/2 years ago. When I bought the car the odometer read 64058, however, the interior was so worn it could be 164058. For a 383 magnum it is lacking a lot of power and all I really want is to restore the engine to its original performance level or a bit more if available. Everything else is OE except carb which is Carter Performance series 650. Once I get it back to its original performance level, I'll consider the usual additions. Thank You again for your recommendations.

 

[wyrmrider]

oh you ave a 383 not a 440 or 413 nice to know I missed that in post 1
If you have an original 70 Magnum it should have "9.5:1" pistons with the stock heads 68 magnum was the same
71 drops to "8.5"
67 was a 1 year only 10:1 with 65-69 having around 9.2 for the non magnum
8.7 in 70 non magnum and as said 8.5 in 71
many/ most of these pistons are no longer available but a good search will give you the compression heights
none of these published compressions is close to reality, all are lower unless motor is "blueprinted"
The decks are above the blueprint spec and the heads always have way more cc's than blueprint
you are not going to find the thin steel shim gaskets either .028 is about it now
to get back to stock performance
looks like you are in for new stem seals get the viton ones and have the guides machined
but first an inspection. check the guides and seats for wear, without porting you do not need or want a high lift cam but one with a lot of (as much as possible) duration at .200 given the seat duration you need for 9:1 iron heads
if it turns out they need seats and guides then do the cost benefit analysis
or just put it back together with new springs and stem seals and a touch up valve job, if budget just knurl the guides to get by
pull the pan and clean the strainer, clean the pan
your real compression is going to be under 9:1
so the voodoo for a off the "shelf" cam or mike jones cam would work either will punch up the bottom and mid range and your heads are the weak point where a bigger cam does not help unless you are hot rodding, driving on the open highways or twisty mountain roads
carb is fine
stock exhausts or headers?
with stock exhaust you need to keep the overlap low but you can run a FEW degrees more on the exhaust (interesting trade off here) so here a dual pattern cam works
(not really necessary with new heads with better ex ports and headers)
opening the exhaust early just makes heat and costs power and mileage
closing exhaust late also makes heat and interferes with the intake charge
factory used late exhaust to add exhaust to the charge to lower combustion temp for emissions but power dropped as did gas mileage compared to say 67
long term- planning ahead - you will need different heads and pistons to get some quench, or the quench dome KB pistons with your heads
without quench you have to watch your octane and dist curve closer- but then you need to do that anyway
adding quench and a Jones type cam can cut your EGT by 800 degrees (in HD use)
70 Gas is not available from the pump most places and expensive where it is
so build a motor that runs like a 70 motor but you can't do that just copying 70 specs

 

[Bighead440]

I have posted this recommendation many times here, to no avail, but for me the go-to hydraulic cam for stock compression B-motors with no valve reliefs and otherwise stock induction/exhaust is the Comp Cams "Dual Energy" DE275H cam. It will work with OEM red (dampner equipped) valve springs or drop-in single springs like the Comp 911-16, etc. Factory HP manifolds and 2.5" dual exhaust work nice or 1 3/4" headers are a possible upgrade. The stock iron intake manifold with a 440 AVS or 750 vacuum secondary Holley etc. will do fine, or a dual plane aluminum intake (Weiand 8008, Eddy DP4B/Performer/RPM etc.) is a nice touch. This cam has the "lope" and basic RPM ability of the "Hemi" grind MoPar Purple cam with much better driveability and low end response, especially in the 3.38" stroke low decks. It's not the latest "wiz-bang" gimmick cam with all the fancy "Whip-Thump" names or "Doo-Extreme" noise, but it runs awesome and sounds even better!!

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-cl21-406-4/make/dodge

 

[Ray70Chrg]

Thank You Wyrmrider and Bighead 440 for your comments. I'm just at the very beginning of looking into this problem so I don't know what I'll find. All of your suggestions will certainly help to bring this engine back to life again.

 

[Bighead440]

Thank You Wyrmrider and Bighead 440 for your comments. I'm just at the very beginning of looking into this problem so I don't know what I'll find. All of your suggestions will certainly help to bring this engine back to life again.

Wyrm definitely is a wealth of knowledge. I just jnow the 275DEH works fantastic on a mild build with zero worry of wiping a lobe (with quality lifters and properly matched springs) or being noisy (from "extreme" fast acting motion). Most people regret going with the latest/greatest cam on a sub-400hp build anyway, due to noise or durability concerns, all to gain maybe 5-10hp at that level. It's my "B" choice, I'd go with a bigger intake lobe on a 440, something like a Crane 302H Commander. Enjoy!!

 

[wyrmrider]

The go to XE268 is the noisy one
The intake slams closed too hard
pair that with some crane quick lifters (that's up) click close (that's closing) and you are really hard on parts
I'd still go Lunati on a shelf cam UD harold learned a bunch doing those comp XE cams before going to Ultradyne and Lunati
I have no idea who did the dual Energy
hopefully NOT the guy who followed Harold

 

[Bighead440]

The go to XE268 is the noisy one
The intake slams closed too hard
pair that with some crane quick lifters (that's up) click close (that's closing) and you are really hard on parts
I'd still go Lunati on a shelf cam UD harold learned a bunch doing those comp XE cams before going to Ultradyne and Lunati
I have no idea who did the dual Energy
hopefully NOT the guy who followed Harold

The way I understood it (from Harold), was he did the High-Energy and (maybe Magnums) for Comp, he did do the VooDoos for Lunati after Ultradyne closed. If you look at a General Kinetics old catalog from the late 70s, Comp Cams used their hyd. and solid flat tappet race lobes in the '80s and still offer the lobes and grinds in the "special purpose" section of the catalog. (like the .540" hydraulics and .565/.585 solids for MoPar apps.) I agree the VooDoo Lunatis are good, but they may still be cutting edge for this budget, street build.

 

[BSB67]

.......but for me the go-to hydraulic cam for stock compression B-motors with no valve reliefs and otherwise stock induction/exhaust is the Comp Cams "Dual Energy" DE275H cam. It will work with OEM red (dampner equipped) valve springs or drop-in single springs like the Comp 911-16, etc. Factory HP manifolds and 2.5" dual exhaust work nice or 1 3/4" headers are a possible upgrade. The stock iron intake manifold with a 440 AVS or 750 vacuum secondary Holley etc. will do fine, or a dual plane aluminum intake (Weiand 8008, Eddy DP4B/Performer/RPM etc.) is a nice touch. This cam has the "lope" and basic RPM ability of the "Hemi" grind MoPar Purple cam with much better driveability and low end response, especially in the 3.38" stroke low decks. It's not the latest "wiz-bang" gimmick cam with all the fancy "Whip-Thump" names or "Doo-Extreme" noise, but it runs awesome and sounds even better!!

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-cl21-406-4/make/dodge

Sounds like a nice cam for a lower compression, mild 383.

 

[Bighead440]

Sounds like a nice cam for a lower compression, mild 383.

I have used it on a stock-pistoned '77 400 shortblock with .060" milled 906 heads, stock rockers, DP4B/750 Edelbrock and HP manifold. In a '70 Challenger R/T with a factory 11" 2400 stall converter and 3.23 gears, it was pretty impressive. When I sold the car a few years later, the guy thought it was a 451 and asked me for the exact combo several times. He had several musclecars with 440s and a '71 Road Runner with a 383 stroked to 438 that ran realy well.
I also used it on a buddy's "Rat Rod" '46 Chevy pickup, in a '65 383 stock shortblock with 452 heads. We used an old Weiand 2x4 intake and 2x500 Eddys and custom 2" fenderwell headers/3.5" bullet mufflers. Turns more heads at carshows than anybody's LS-swap or 454, by far, on sound alone.