Levels of restoration. what would you do?

[Superb Bee]

Hey guys, how would you classify the levels of a restoration, I know we throw phrases like "nut and bolt", "frame off", "shine and sell" out there... but who knows what that means, I always wished there was a better way to classify a cars level of restoration more accurately than that and with out 2500 words and 250 pictures... We used to say "galen govier certified" and now I am seeing more and more "mark worman says" in sales listings, but to me I would pay very little extra for a car govier blessed, in some cases I would walk right by because it usually mean they wanted too much for it and I could buy the same car for a lot less if he never looked it over...

but, I have done all levels, I have taken survivors and just detailed them, rust neutralizer, matte clear coats, shampoo, treat, and touch up interiors, soak old rubber tires , get the suspension, brakes, and driveline operating, clean the gas tank, change the fluids, and go...

Then a step above would be changing the carpet and headliner, fixing ripped seats, fixing damaged body panels and not painting the entire car.

Then I have done a lot of them where I do all that but recover the seats, rebuild the dash, replace or rechrome the chrome, rebuild the motor, seals in tranny and rear end, paint the entire car (not under carpet and headliner), replace vinyl top, repair any shoddy wiring.

And from them levels all the way up to complete rebuilds, right now I have a super bee on the rotisserie that is just a shell, it was dipped, fixed, primed, and now its ready for paint (well ready for block sanding), and we are replacing every bulb, piece of glass, hose, belt, nut and bolt, every bracket, sticker, wire, and pretty much every piece of plastic and rubber that the car came with.
Everything that was chrome is rechromed. The engine, carbs, alternator, tranny, rear end, electric motors, pumps, lights, dash, column, console, suspension, brakes, linkage, all rebuilt and restored.


But how do you put that in a few words in the title of a for sale thread,
frame off restoration" doesnt cover that, you can do a frame off and not replace every bolt and wire.

I thought of this because I friend of mine is building a car, and he wants to do it how we are doing that Bee, (I have done many bees), so I gave him a list of stuff to start with, he doesnt want to strip his car because its a driver right now (383 4 spd originally has a 440 auto in it now) he has a rebuilt 383 and rebuilt 4 speed with all the parts, the car has a dana but didnt come with one, and he has a rebuilt 8 3/4" posi also ready to go in..

His plan was to just do the drive line, but now he wants to do it back to new, which I dont blame him, its a nice solid car, its solid needs no body work except to be stripped and painted back to the original color (yellow car someone painted orange, looks like an attempt at go mango).

He was asking the costs, because his car has been apart and changed and changed again and again, he wants to start over with the correct hardware and wiring, it has autometer gauges, and painless style wiring in it now, and 74 style buckets..

So he is looking on ebay and notices the values of the cars greatly differ, and I tried to explain its hard to compare what your car will be when its done to them "drivers", what scared him was he priced the list of hardware and wiring (just the bolts, glass, wiring, and little brackets and clips came to $5000), and he seen the interior without including rebuilding the dash and column is around $2500 (door panels, seat covers, headliner, carpet, etc), then $1000 to dip, $6500 to paint, hes up to $15K and he already spent $15K on the motor, tranny, and rear end (which was a steal, he has all the 4 speed stuff from Wayne, the complete kit, and motor top to bottom front to back), then he is into the car as it sits for $22K and I estimate he needs $2000 in chrome, $5000 in parts (wheels, tires, brakes, suspension), $1500 in exhaust, a $300 driveshaft, radiator for $750, it goes on and on it can be scary..

A rough estimate of 6 months (he is going to drive car this coming season while he gets all the parts and everything ready, then rip it apart end of this year, send it for body work, restore everything, and try to get it back before the weather brakes 2018... AND the cost is gonna be around $33K for the restoration, minus his dana is worth $2000 and his motor and tranny are worth $1500.

To me its an easy choice, bring the car back to original you already have the driveline ready, but he is thinking this way-
$35K plus his car as it sits is worth $30K he can buy a real nice car for $65K and do no work...

Not sure what I would do, and I told him to try to find a 70' super bee, 4 speed, n96 car, all original date correct, nut and bolt restored all fresh for $65K, its about what you will pay if you can find one done how you want...


I dont know what to tell him, I just had a 45 minute phone conversation with him and figured I would see if I was putting him on the right path... I may be a little biased because I have a lot going on and no room to throw his driveline in, and thats whats going to happen, before the spring I will have to find a couple weeks to put his car together for him, where if he waits and does it nut and bolt, I can plan for it next year, I explained this to him and he understands... If I didnt I would not make this post because he is probably reading it right now, (hey Jeff)...

 

[mmissile]

Buyers market.

 

[kiwigtx]

I want to see some adverts for cars up for sale with the following text;

"FBBO Forum approved"

 

[steve from staten island]

You restore a car to what ever level you want or can afford. If it's a truly rare car then I'd say it should be done correctly. If your worried about doing your car and what it will cost as compared to buying one complete and done your making a mistake. I have way to much invested in a stock 69 sport sat convert. I don't really care what anyone says,that car is done the way I want and what makes me smile. I don't see how you can make a almost fifty year old car reliable enough to drive cross country any other way.

 

[Superb Bee]

You restore a car to what ever level you want or can afford. If it's a truly rare car then I'd say it should be done correctly. If your worried about doing your car and what it will cost as compared to buying one complete and done your making a mistake. I have way to much invested in a stock 69 sport sat convert. I don't really care what anyone says,that car is done the way I want and what makes me smile. I don't see how you can make a almost fifty year old car reliable enough to drive cross country any other way.

Steve I have had some 2 day old cars i wouldn't drive across Monaco (thats the smallest country in the world, I think), lol. I bought a brand new 1986 Plymouth Reliant (k car), loaded fuel injected 2.5L (first year for that), $6250 of my hard earned money, making $219 a week before OT, and it didnt make it home, bought it for my wife and it died infront of me on the way home from the dealership!!!! They fixed that thing 200 ******* times, and we traded it in the day the warranty ran out for a Buick with a 3.8l and that thing went for 150K miles without an issue, ended up selling it with a bad trans though, but it lasted 150K back then, not too bad...

man that K car was junk box...

 

[kiwigtx]

1986 Plymouth Reliant

Well that name turned out to be a lie didn't it.

 

[mmissile]

Best beaters I ever had, were K-Cars.

 

[GetX'd]

I just did my GTX over the last several years. I didn't do the work but had someone do it for me. I'm just not that equipped to do what was done. I call it a "ground up" restoration. I've owned the car for 46 years and it was in storage for the last 35 prior to the resto period. It wasnt a frame off or a nut and bolt - but we went thru everything. I didn't keep records on costs and everything but it cost me a lot to do a car that was already quite solid. If I knew how much it was going to cost - and I'm happy with the end result - I'm not sure that I would have done it. The reason I did was I have a lot of emotions and sentimental value invested in that car given it was the first car I've ever owned and still have. If it didn't have all that cooked into the mixture I would have bought a car that was already done. I believe it would have cost me less for a product just as nice. I don't consider my car a driver - or a trailer queen. It's worthy of a good show car - but not "perfect".

Granted if your friend can do a lot of the work he would save a lot of money over what I did - But if he doesn't have an emotional attachment I would buy a car that's already done and have fun with it. Just my opinion - although I did have some interesting times finding needed parts.

 

[Superb Bee]

I just did my GTX over the last several years. I didn't do the work but had someone do it for me. I'm just not that equipped to do what was done. I call it a "ground up" restoration. I've owned the car for 46 years and it was in storage for the last 35 prior to the resto period. It wasnt a frame off or a nut and bolt - but we went thru everything. I didn't keep records on costs and everything but it cost me a lot to do a car that was already quite solid. If I knew how much it was going to cost - and I'm happy with the end result - I'm not sure that I would have done it. The reason I did was I have a lot of emotions and sentimental value invested in that car given it was the first car I've ever owned and still have. If it didn't have all that cooked into the mixture I would have bought a car that was already done. I believe it would have cost me less for a product just as nice. I don't consider my car a driver - or a trailer queen. It's worthy of a good show car - but not "perfect".

Granted if your friend can do a lot of the work he would save a lot of money over what I did - But if he doesn't have an emotional attachment I would buy a car that's already done and have fun with it. Just my opinion - although I did have some interesting times finding needed parts.

He has no emotional attachment that cant be found in another super bee, he always liked the cars and he found a nice one for the right price.

Ground up is another phrase, I didnt think of that one..

To me a show car is nothing a miss, a car that looks like it is still on the showroom floor. I have never owned one, lol.

I think if people knew what it cost to restore one of these cars properly, and people shared their stories and costs, the project car prices would drop a bit and the finished car prices would go up...

I sold a 69 road runner, it was a project I bought off the gentleman who had it 10 years and bought door handles, window cranks, emblems, wheels and tires for it in that time, the tires were 10 years old, and the old repopped handles already had rough spots on them, lol. I bought the car for $4500 because it came with an early 70 440 hp2 motor that spun freely with no vin stamped in it, and I needed one.
I yank the motor, I had a 69 383 that was locked up from sitting, I pulled the heads and the bores were clean, I k1/atf mixed them and it freed them up, I got it spinning, Cleaned it all out, put the heads back on with new gaskets, pulled the pan to clean it out good, and assembled the motor back. I spent 2 hours putting it back in the rr's hole, and my brother said Ill bet you that motor runs, and I said no way, the heads were clunky, I didnt do a valve job or anything and it had a bit of water in the pan, I said it will cook a bearing in 5 minutes..

So that was it now we are wiring it, bolting on a starter and dropping a distributor with $11 of spark plugs, lol.. junk edlebrock and That motor fired like it was never shut off, the topping the tranny with type f and we did a few holeshots with the car (no brakes, very hard steering)...

OK, back to the story, I get side tracked this is all new to me having people who will listen to my old mopar stories..

The car needed quarters, fenders, doors, full floor and trunk, inner fenders, a door jamb, and rockers, the dutchman was very nice as was the roof and around both windows (surprising) the frame was also decent... The interior was kind of there, the glass was all there, the car was pretty much all there, and it looked like less work than it was.

On craigslist it went, (anyone who watches ri c-list will remember it from a 3-4 years ago, it was a real runner and a post car 383 auto bench seat, b5 blue, air grabber, had potential...) the body didnt look as bad as it was but literally the paint was holding it together, someone laquered long ago and as most of you know that **** doesnt let go of the metal it will hold it in shape until you pull it off... But I knew what it needed and put it in the add.. We listed it for $9500, and I got 25 calls the first 6 hours, first guy that came counted out the money before he really even seen the car, the add said "carb not included" he said he would pay the 9500 if I left the carb on it, so I agreed (old edelbrock with afb decal).

So I could tell he was not a restorer and didnt know much about them, him and his buddy or brother not sure, looked under neath and we started it up, I actually took them around the block in it (loud and scary was its nick name)...

I remember thinking, "if you drop this car off at a body shop its gonna be $30K in body work and parts, the drivelines gonna be $10K, interior $3K (minimum, Ive spent that on a dash board with no radio), then another $15K for everything else, its a $50K resto EASILY if you dont have wrenches. and they just paid $10K, and I have a 69 gtx with the original 440-6 in it for $40K right next to it!!!!


People don't think it through, so the projects sell to these dreamers who scrape up the initial cost and then have no idea what they are in for...

 

[steve from staten island]

Bee, thats quite a story. Many American made cars were almost as bad. I had a 88 ford aero star and later on a Mercury Sabel. Both had good engines but **** transmissions. The aero had the idler pulley go bad the first week I owned it. The Sabel had transmission problems and electrical from day one. By comparison my brand new 1974 Monte Carlo with a 350 never broke down. No fuel injection and no computer. The only thing I didn't overhaul on my 69 is the rear. I plan on pulling the cover and doing the axel seals. It's a 8 1/4 rear. I have a 355 sure grip which is suppose to be good but I don't know if I should swap rears. What do you think

 

[dieseldazzle]

I wouldn't say only dreamers buy projects and never finish them that's a little biased.

People are either in it for love or money.

 

[MrJLR]

I would never restore a car to the point where I wouldn't want to drive it

Jeff

 

[Bladecutter]

Hey guys, how would you classify the levels of a restoration, I know we throw phrases like "nut and bolt", "frame off", "shine and sell" out there... but who knows what that means, I always wished there was a better way to classify a cars level of restoration more accurately than that and with out 2500 words and 250 pictures... We used to say "galen govier certified" and now I am seeing more and more "mark worman says" in sales listings, but to me I would pay very little extra for a car govier blessed, in some cases I would walk right by because it usually mean they wanted too much for it and I could buy the same car for a lot less if he never looked it over...

but, I have done all levels, I have taken survivors and just detailed them, rust neutralizer, matte clear coats, shampoo, treat, and touch up interiors, soak old rubber tires , get the suspension, brakes, and driveline operating, clean the gas tank, change the fluids, and go...

Then a step above would be changing the carpet and headliner, fixing ripped seats, fixing damaged body panels and not painting the entire car.

Then I have done a lot of them where I do all that but recover the seats, rebuild the dash, replace or rechrome the chrome, rebuild the motor, seals in tranny and rear end, paint the entire car (not under carpet and headliner), replace vinyl top, repair any shoddy wiring.

And from them levels all the way up to complete rebuilds, right now I have a super bee on the rotisserie that is just a shell, it was dipped, fixed, primed, and now its ready for paint (well ready for block sanding), and we are replacing every bulb, piece of glass, hose, belt, nut and bolt, every bracket, sticker, wire, and pretty much every piece of plastic and rubber that the car came with.
Everything that was chrome is rechromed. The engine, carbs, alternator, tranny, rear end, electric motors, pumps, lights, dash, column, console, suspension, brakes, linkage, all rebuilt and restored.


But how do you put that in a few words in the title of a for sale thread,
frame off restoration" doesnt cover that, you can do a frame off and not replace every bolt and wire.

I thought of this because I friend of mine is building a car, and he wants to do it how we are doing that Bee, (I have done many bees), so I gave him a list of stuff to start with, he doesnt want to strip his car because its a driver right now (383 4 spd originally has a 440 auto in it now) he has a rebuilt 383 and rebuilt 4 speed with all the parts, the car has a dana but didnt come with one, and he has a rebuilt 8 3/4" posi also ready to go in..

His plan was to just do the drive line, but now he wants to do it back to new, which I dont blame him, its a nice solid car, its solid needs no body work except to be stripped and painted back to the original color (yellow car someone painted orange, looks like an attempt at go mango).

He was asking the costs, because his car has been apart and changed and changed again and again, he wants to start over with the correct hardware and wiring, it has autometer gauges, and painless style wiring in it now, and 74 style buckets..

So he is looking on ebay and notices the values of the cars greatly differ, and I tried to explain its hard to compare what your car will be when its done to them "drivers", what scared him was he priced the list of hardware and wiring (just the bolts, glass, wiring, and little brackets and clips came to $5000), and he seen the interior without including rebuilding the dash and column is around $2500 (door panels, seat covers, headliner, carpet, etc), then $1000 to dip, $6500 to paint, hes up to $15K and he already spent $15K on the motor, tranny, and rear end (which was a steal, he has all the 4 speed stuff from Wayne, the complete kit, and motor top to bottom front to back), then he is into the car as it sits for $22K and I estimate he needs $2000 in chrome, $5000 in parts (wheels, tires, brakes, suspension), $1500 in exhaust, a $300 driveshaft, radiator for $750, it goes on and on it can be scary..

A rough estimate of 6 months (he is going to drive car this coming season while he gets all the parts and everything ready, then rip it apart end of this year, send it for body work, restore everything, and try to get it back before the weather brakes 2018... AND the cost is gonna be around $33K for the restoration, minus his dana is worth $2000 and his motor and tranny are worth $1500.

To me its an easy choice, bring the car back to original you already have the driveline ready, but he is thinking this way-
$35K plus his car as it sits is worth $30K he can buy a real nice car for $65K and do no work...

Not sure what I would do, and I told him to try to find a 70' super bee, 4 speed, n96 car, all original date correct, nut and bolt restored all fresh for $65K, its about what you will pay if you can find one done how you want...


I dont know what to tell him, I just had a 45 minute phone conversation with him and figured I would see if I was putting him on the right path... I may be a little biased because I have a lot going on and no room to throw his driveline in, and thats whats going to happen, before the spring I will have to find a couple weeks to put his car together for him, where if he waits and does it nut and bolt, I can plan for it next year, I explained this to him and he understands... If I didnt I would not make this post because he is probably reading it right now, (hey Jeff)...

I sure wouldn't toss out the auto meter gauges, nut & bolt or not.

 

[flypaper]

tell him if he is worried about a return on investment, sell the damn thing and go buy a money market account.
the days of properly restoring a mopar and just breaking even have left us well over a decade ago.
those are the cold facts he needs to face.

 

[dieseldazzle]

I don't really have any love lost for guys coming into the mopar hobby just for the "money" lol realistically it's like everything in life you have the 2-10% that make all the money and profit and then you have the rest of us which love these damn things

I'm into these cars for the blood sweat and tears. I make my money and invest elsewhere.

 

[Superb Bee]

I don't do it to 'make money" But I do it so my car hobby pays for itself. So when I have bumpers chromed, I chrome 4 sets, get a great price on them because they are doing bulk and sell the extras so the chroming on mine is free...

 

[moparnation74]

I have done almost every type of restoration.....Each one had a particular purpose and served them well. My joy came from the variety and uncovering history along with enjoying the end product....

They are all money pits and I never cared about profit or loss.......

 

[dieseldazzle]

I don't do it to 'make money" But I do it so my car hobby pays for itself. So when I have bumpers chromed, I chrome 4 sets, get a great price on them because they are doing bulk and sell the extras so the chroming on mine is free...

I didn't say that you do it for profit

I don't do it to 'make money" But I do it so my car hobby pays for itself. So when I have bumpers chromed, I chrome 4 sets, get a great price on them because they are doing bulk and sell the extras so the chroming on mine is free...

My response was in general not at any member here specifically don't take it the wrong way

 

[flypaper]

I don't really have any love lost for guys coming into the mopar hobby just for the "money" lol

When someone does that,
They usually end up Butt hurt! ..LOL

 

[WP29440SE]

When someone does that,
They usually end up Butt hurt! ..LOL

And that's quite alright by me , maybe they will take up drug dealing instead and leave the cars to those of us that see them for their intended purpose.
..And to add, it's pretty labor intensive to do a frame off restoration on a unibody