Long winded cam question…Sorry

[Plumcrazybee]

Hey guys (and girls), I am looking for some input and opinions on a cam for a 440 I am building for a PAYING CUSTOMER!! LOL..I have built so many engines in the last 35 years, that I have no idea how many. Even including a hell of a lot of aircraft engines. But I have never before had someone walk up at a car cruise and say, "Hey, that 440 you have sure runs great. Who built it?" And more importantly, ask me to build them one after I mentioned I was the builder. And actually hand me CASH:headbang: to do it.

It seems all my usual engine building has been for friends, or friends of friends, and the usual payment was a few 6 packs of beer. Well, I think I always agreed with that payment too. Yeah, I know I could have refused to do it, or kicked them out of my garage. But just love engines. It's a curse.

So….back to my question. I am looking for REAL world experience with a cam that has worked PERFECTLY for you. My dilemma has two catches tied to it. First, the 1974 440 in this guys 73 Charger is bone stock. And he wants it to remain fairly close to that condition when I am done. EXCEPT, he wants it to "idle like a funny car," and "really have some power when he punches it." Yes, those are his words. And he also mentioned, "just want to use pump gas in it."

OK, so yes, I tried to explain to him that idling "like a funny car" could happen fairly easy, but running a stock converter in the trans, having 8.2 to 1 compression, factory exhaust manifolds, 3.08 gears, and a 4000 lb car would be tough. And that it would run like crap when I was done. But he just said he wants what he wants.

I did talk him into a Performer RPM, a Holley carb, a MP distributor and orange box(and I am working on him to buy some headers). Holley carb mostly because I know them. Not so good at tuning other types. It is just a carb I have always liked. This car will never be raced. Not at the track, and not even at the "Red Light Nationals."

OK, I said two catches. The other one is we live at 5300 ft elevation. But I can usually do some math(guessing) and figure out a cam that would work here that would be near the equivalent of how a cam works at sea level.

So, any input is welcome. But please don't parrot what you heard or read about. I have read all of those possibilities too. Not trying to be a dick here. I am just looking for people that are,(or have) used a cam in an engine that is pretty much stock and are happy with their choice.

Thank you very much!!! And Happy Father's Day to all of the dads out there!!

Oh, I called Comp Cams just for fun. I called last week, and called on 3 different days. Guess what? I got 3 different cam recommendations. And the cams they recommended were WAY different than what the other "tech experts" had told me to use. Not a big surprise. I think what has me unsure on what to go with is the stock condition of this engine. I don't think I have ever built an automotive engine that was stock. New ground here.

 

[Meep-Meep]

The requirements are all over the place so no way the customer is going to have it all. The best advice I can suggest is go look at my 66 Belvedere 440 build under the 12 second forum. It's quite simple, inexpensive and works. Not the fastest thing around but it will destroy a set of rear tires if you let it.

Do you have a way to CC the heads and piston top? If so then see where you are at before making any decisions. To bring the compression up nearly one point you can install closed chamber heads and a steel shim gasket. Also having the block decked and heads cut will give you a bit more. Shoot for 9.5:1 max.

 

[Photon440]

Why not tell him that if he likes the way your engine runs, great - you'll build him a copy. But if he wants to change the parameters, you'll happily do the assembly but he'll have to come up with the research on it.

 

[451Mopar]

If you haven't bought the intake/carb/ignition, I just went to EFI, and took of a performer RPM, Holly Ultra Avenger 770, and Accel Billet Dist of my 440.
I'll send you a PM.

You may want to talk to Lou Carbone, He was a Hughes Engines parts dealer for Denver awhile back. I haven't used any of the whiplash cams, but maybe he has? I have use the Luniti voodoo cam in a low compression 400 where the owner was really happy with it, but we also installed a 10" converter in the transmission. Really, at this altitude I would try to build the engine with a minimum of 9.5:1 or more compression.
I put together a list for a mild and inexpensive 440 last year for a friend of a friend, but he went total low budget with rebuilder kit that had low compression cast pistons, the cam was the low performance stock type, timing chain was stock replacement, etc.
Then the guy decided he wanted a larger cam, and roller timing chain, and he thought the stock valve springs with around 75-83# seat pressure would work. I donated some 440 source stealth valve springs to the build. At least we used some 0.020" head gaskets to up the compression a bit.

Anyhow...
For pistons, In the Speed Pro Catalog, they list a "light weight" LW2355 piston, and when I priced them at Summit last year they were only $409.39, but when I look them up now at Summit they don't show up? But they looked like a good deal for a Forged flat top. The Hyperuretic Speed Pro ZH143CP30 were $337.69/set and use 1/16"x1/16"x3/16" rings. The Keith Black and other flat top pistons that are near zero deck will work, we were just trying to keep costs down, and these looked like a good value. The pistons are still a bit below deck (around 0.020"), but should be around 9.7:1 compression with a 0.020" head gasket. If you deck the block to bring the pistons to zero deck, then you get about 10:1 compression (with the 0.020" gasket), but then the engine is set up when/if the owner swaps the stock heads with RPM or Stealth heads.
The 440 was using stock 906 heads, with 89cc Chambers.
For a cam, The Luniti Voodoo 10230704LK (cam/lifter kit) - 276/284 adv, 234/242 @ 0.050", 0.513"/0.533" lift. I like the 3-Bolt timing sets better than the single bolt versions, but the Comp XE cam if the same size would work the same. Anyhow, that is about as large a can I would use with a stock converter. As I mentioned, we were looking at possible future changes, where the short block and cam would be good to go when the owner decides to put aftermarket heads on the car.
We did get the owner to install ARP rod bolts and have the rods resized. I would consider that mandatory on a rebuild using stock rods.

 

[Xp29h]

Here's what I have for specs on the cam I put in a 383 (not440) with an edelbrock tm6 (not the rpm) and holley double pumper 650. the motor is not stock either. But I didn't want that big "funny car" idle either.
The po said the motor had a very aggressive cam in and it didn't run well at all. I found out that it had other issues. But since tracking those down and fixing, idles well not too Lopey but runs well.. And it has that initial get up and go.

I know not your exact setup but I thought it might get you some numbers to think about. I'm pretty happy with the choice. I'm not too sure if you can get both the way he wants?? I'm thinking there will be some give and take on each and by the time he's done he should have listened to you right from the start..

Good luck! Hope it helps a little

 

[62 Dart Convertible]

I would probably spend some time with your customer explaining to him the trade-offs that come with cam selection and that you can't have it both ways. It's all about compromise.

He wants a nasty idle - easy, over cam the crap out of it, - but that comes at the expense of low end torque, and will be a horrible pain in the *** and like a slug off the line with a stock converter, and still not make the power it should up top if it isn't matched to good heads etc. I'm not sure I would build an engine like that for anybody even if they asked me to...

For personal experience, I am running the Luniti Voodoo 10230703LK cam (one step smaller than 451Mopar in post #4) in a 11:1CR 413. It idles OK but certainly lumpier than stock (not quite like a Funny car tho) - and still has plenty of low-mid range torque, and works OK with a stock converter.

 

[451Mopar]

I would probably spend some time with your customer explaining to him the trade-offs that come with cam selection and that you can't have it both ways. It's all about compromise.

He wants a nasty idle - easy, over cam the crap out of it, - but that comes at the expense of low end torque, and will be a horrible pain in the *** and like a slug off the line with a stock converter, and still not make the power it should up top if it isn't matched to good heads etc. I'm not sure I would build an engine like that for anybody even if they asked me to...

For personal experience, I am running the Luniti Voodoo 10230703LK cam (one step smaller than 451Mopar in post #4) in a 11:1CR 413. It idles OK but certainly lumpier than stock (not quite like a Funny car tho) - and still has plenty of low-mid range torque, and works OK with a stock converter.

We tried to talk the owner into the smaller cam, but he wanted "a large cam". I guess that was over 1/2" lift?
I calculated the effective compression ratio (compression from intake closing point) and cranking pressure to get an idea of the low end torque and fuel octane requirements. At 10:1 compression, with the 276/284 cam, the effective compression is about 7.8:1. At sea-level, the cranking pressure should be about 160 psi, but in Denver that drops to a bit over 130 psi.

I guess you have closed chamber heads.
With 11:1 compression and the smaller cam (installed at 106 degrees), I calculate cranking cylinder pressures of around 180 psi?
I think that would be tough to run on low octane gas. Our Premium pump gas is only 91 octane.
What grade of fuel are you using to run 11:1 compression with that cam?

 

[Cranky]

"OK, so yes, I tried to explain to him that idling "like a funny car" could happen fairly easy, but running a stock converter in the trans, having 8.2 to 1 compression, factory exhaust manifolds, 3.08 gears, and a 4000 lb car would be tough. And that it would run like crap when I was done. But he just said he wants what he wants."

That's something that I've always refused to do mainly because if that's what he wants.....that customer doesn't know what he wants and when my name is on the line, I'm picky about what goes out of the door. It's like welding. This guy I know (used to consider him a friend) that has a race shop and builds cars from the ground up posted a pic of a lousy looking weld and I asked who did the weld and he got crazy on me and told me to STFU and go bark up some other tree and that I know nothing and on and on. Well damn, why would ya post a pic of a piece of crap on the net for everyone to see when you run a race shop? Well, that funny car idle is like a bad looking weld. It might sound good, but the combination is going to suck and run like sheeet.

But to answer your question, I've had pretty good results with the old 284/484 cam in low compression 440s with them advanced 4 degrees. Decent sounding idle plus they actually went pretty good but that combo needs at least a 2600 converter and 3.23/3.55 gears or it's going to be a dog off the line.

 

[TekHousE]

Save yourself a lot of headaches..Go to Hughes, get their WHIPLASH cam..Designed for Funny car idle, major torque, smooths out after 1800 RPM. And works on low compression!! What more do you want?

http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/...nQ=&searchmode=partnumber&page=4&partid=25115

Thank me later.. ;)

I'm putting this in my soon to be rebuilt 383, which I am going to rebuild strong but stock.

 

[super-bee_ski]

Yeah, as TekHousE says...play it safe...
(I'd call Comp Cams, Crane or Isky...for their input)

AND, I'll bet you will always have "returning issues" with this customer.
He may NEVER be happy!

Beware!

 

[upnover]

my wifes challenger had a low comp 440, stock 346 heads, headers ,performer rpm,and holley 800 dp with a 484 purple shaft, it sounded good and loped good, ended up running 13.10 with 3.55s and the factory high stall that dayco makes. its all gone now as I believe in more bite than bark, but whatever ur customer wants.

 

[Plumcrazybee]

Thanks everybody! I really appreciate the input. And yes, as so many have mentioned, this guy is living in a fantasy world. There is no way I am building anything that will run like crap. Not with my name attached. And as far as building one like mine, I don't think he would like that either. 12 to 1 compression, BIG Hughes cam, etc. Not to mention the $10,000 or so that he would have to come up with to match mine.

I talked to Dave Hughes today. Have known him since late 90's. Back when there were no employees and the catalog was paper, lol. I think I am going with the Wiplash cam. Just hate the price. But, when you buy from him, you get limitless help over the phone. So that is worth a chunk right there. His concern was bumping compression up too much for the Wiplash cam. Anything 9.5 to 1 and higher is too much for the cam(according to Dave, and he should know).

BUT, that is for you poor folks that have to live at sea level. 9.5 here is 8.5 there. Or close to it. We agreed that 9.5 here with the Wiplash would be about perfect. Except for those damn gears and the converter. I'm working on that….

Thank you again! Everybody!

And for you guys that ask about my wife and the cancer, I am VERY happy to say she is done with chemo and radiation as of today. Toughest person I have ever known. But damn that stuff is nasty. Once she gets recuperated from the doctor induced poisoning that has been going on since late April, she has surgery to remove the cancer. That should be July. It means more than you know to have people I have never met saying prayers for my wife. Her name is Toni, I love her hugely, and it has been a VERY fun ride for the last 30 years. Hope we have many years to go!

 

[Xp29h]

I was not aware, my prayers and thoughts are with you and your wife. Beat that nasty stuff!!!!

 

[451Mopar]

Thanks everybody! I really appreciate the input. And yes, as so many have mentioned, this guy is living in a fantasy world. There is no way I am building anything that will run like crap. Not with my name attached. And as far as building one like mine, I don't think he would like that either. 12 to 1 compression, BIG Hughes cam, etc. Not to mention the $10,000 or so that he would have to come up with to match mine.

I talked to Dave Hughes today. Have known him since late 90's. Back when there were no employees and the catalog was paper, lol. I think I am going with the Wiplash cam. Just hate the price. But, when you buy from him, you get limitless help over the phone. So that is worth a chunk right there. His concern was bumping compression up too much for the Wiplash cam. Anything 9.5 to 1 and higher is too much for the cam(according to Dave, and he should know).

BUT, that is for you poor folks that have to live at sea level. 9.5 here is 8.5 there. Or close to it. We agreed that 9.5 here with the Wiplash would be about perfect. Except for those damn gears and the converter. I'm working on that….

Thank you again! Everybody!

And for you guys that ask about my wife and the cancer, I am VERY happy to say she is done with chemo and radiation as of today. Toughest person I have ever known. But damn that stuff is nasty. Once she gets recuperated from the doctor induced poisoning that has been going on since late April, she has surgery to remove the cancer. That should be July. It means more than you know to have people I have never met saying prayers for my wife. Her name is Toni, I love her hugely, and it has been a VERY fun ride for the last 30 years. Hope we have many years to go!

What are you running in your car?
The Hughes cam looks like it install at 102 intake centerline? If you think your compression it too high, just install it straight up at 107 degrees.
My 360 has a Hughes cam and it works good, but their prices have really increased.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks everybody! I really appreciate the input. And yes, as so many have mentioned, this guy is living in a fantasy world. There is no way I am building anything that will run like crap. Not with my name attached. And as far as building one like mine, I don't think he would like that either. 12 to 1 compression, BIG Hughes cam, etc. Not to mention the $10,000 or so that he would have to come up with to match mine.

I talked to Dave Hughes today. Have known him since late 90's. Back when there were no employees and the catalog was paper, lol. I think I am going with the Wiplash cam. Just hate the price. But, when you buy from him, you get limitless help over the phone. So that is worth a chunk right there. His concern was bumping compression up too much for the Wiplash cam. Anything 9.5 to 1 and higher is too much for the cam(according to Dave, and he should know).

BUT, that is for you poor folks that have to live at sea level. 9.5 here is 8.5 there. Or close to it. We agreed that 9.5 here with the Wiplash would be about perfect. Except for those damn gears and the converter. I'm working on that….

Thank you again! Everybody!

And for you guys that ask about my wife and the cancer, I am VERY happy to say she is done with chemo and radiation as of today. Toughest person I have ever known. But damn that stuff is nasty. Once she gets recuperated from the doctor induced poisoning that has been going on since late April, she has surgery to remove the cancer. That should be July. It means more than you know to have people I have never met saying prayers for my wife. Her name is Toni, I love her hugely, and it has been a VERY fun ride for the last 30 years. Hope we have many years to go!

What are you running in your car?
The Hughes cam looks like it install at 102 intake centerline? If you think your compression it too high, just install it straight up at 107 degrees.
My 360 has a Hughes cam and it works good, but their prices have really increased.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks everybody! I really appreciate the input. And yes, as so many have mentioned, this guy is living in a fantasy world. There is no way I am building anything that will run like crap. Not with my name attached. And as far as building one like mine, I don't think he would like that either. 12 to 1 compression, BIG Hughes cam, etc. Not to mention the $10,000 or so that he would have to come up with to match mine.

I talked to Dave Hughes today. Have known him since late 90's. Back when there were no employees and the catalog was paper, lol. I think I am going with the Wiplash cam. Just hate the price. But, when you buy from him, you get limitless help over the phone. So that is worth a chunk right there. His concern was bumping compression up too much for the Wiplash cam. Anything 9.5 to 1 and higher is too much for the cam(according to Dave, and he should know).

BUT, that is for you poor folks that have to live at sea level. 9.5 here is 8.5 there. Or close to it. We agreed that 9.5 here with the Wiplash would be about perfect. Except for those damn gears and the converter. I'm working on that….

Thank you again! Everybody!

And for you guys that ask about my wife and the cancer, I am VERY happy to say she is done with chemo and radiation as of today. Toughest person I have ever known. But damn that stuff is nasty. Once she gets recuperated from the doctor induced poisoning that has been going on since late April, she has surgery to remove the cancer. That should be July. It means more than you know to have people I have never met saying prayers for my wife. Her name is Toni, I love her hugely, and it has been a VERY fun ride for the last 30 years. Hope we have many years to go!

What are you running in your car?
The Hughes cam looks like it install at 102 intake centerline? If you think your compression it too high, just install it straight up at 107 degrees.
My 360 has a Hughes cam and it works good, but their prices have really increased.

 

[Garys1969RR]

I have had good results with the 509 cam in my 451. With a lot of initial timing advance (20 degrees) plus vacumn advance, the thing has real good power/torque from just off idle all the way up. And it idles pretty rough too! I have it installed straight up due to the high C/R I am running. Advancing it would prob build too much cyl pressure at low RPMs. And yes I live in Denver with all the thin air too!

- - - Updated - - -

Go to Bandimere on a Wed nite, would like to meet you, Plum Crazy!

 

[62 Dart Convertible]

With 11:1 compression and the smaller cam (installed at 106 degrees), I calculate cranking cylinder pressures of around 180 psi?
I think that would be tough to run on low octane gas. Our Premium pump gas is only 91 octane.
What grade of fuel are you using to run 11:1 compression with that cam?

I don't want to hijack the original thread, but this may help others. I haven't done a cranking pressure test. 91 octane - absolutely no way. I run 98 Octane (our premium) and i still can't run the timing where I'd like it. Even added octane booster to a tank of 98 once, still no good. My future involves a pair of cometic head gaskets.... (yes I could go a set of open chamber heads, but i have too many $$ in these closed chambers.)

 

[TekHousE]

I got positive info from Hughes today via email. They really seem to be customer friendly. Even though I had asked about higher cost parts, such as double valve springs with dampers etc. Kevin told me that I don't need them. So in fact he helped me out to make the right choices even though I was ready to buy more expensive parts.

I consider that RARE these days.

He answered a heap of questions concerning compression etc. Which was really helpful to me in making a decision on which way to go.

So it's the whiplash for me. Oh and Kevin told me I do NOT need to change torque converter for a higher stall. He says it will be fine with my stock one.

 

[Garys1969RR]

I don't want to hijack the original thread, but this may help others. I haven't done a cranking pressure test. 91 octane - absolutely no way. I run 98 Octane (our premium) and i still can't run the timing where I'd like it. Even added octane booster to a tank of 98 once, still no good. My future involves a pair of cometic head gaskets.... (yes I could go a set of open chamber heads, but i have too many $$ in these closed chambers.)

I run a 50/50 mix of 91 octane premium, and 105 octane E 85 with larger main jets, and running just shy of ping in my 13 to 1 C/R motor. Try adding 1 gallon of E 85 to 3 gallons of premium, see if that helps you get your timing to where you want it. You have E 85 down there?

 

[62 Dart Convertible]

I run a 50/50 mix of 91 octane premium, and 105 octane E 85 with larger main jets, and running just shy of ping in my 13 to 1 C/R motor. Try adding 1 gallon of E 85 to 3 gallons of premium, see if that helps you get your timing to where you want it. You have E 85 down there?

Hmmmm.. worth considering.

How do stock fuel lines, pump and carbs like E85?