My BUDGET 451 build... finally

[HT413]

Well, here goes nothing. So I've been hoarding parts and hunting deals for about 2 years and I'm finally ready to start building a motor.

The plan: street motor that can do some track duty a few times a year without missing a beat. I was originally planning a 440 build, but got a nice deal on a 400/451 block and rotating assembly, so that's where I'm headed.

The car: my trusty 69 belvedere mini tubbed with 4 link, and somewhat lightened with some fiberglass goodies. 727, 8-3/4 with 4.10 sure grip.

The engine: Picked up a fully machined 400 that was bored 30 over, decked, line honed with arp main studs. Also picked up a balanced rotating assembly with machined 440 forged crank, prepped LY rods resized with arp bolts and forged Ross 99494 pistons that the block was already machined for. It's more than I need, but I got a great deal and it should provide lots of room for growth. Biggest concern I have here is compression ratio, which I won't know until I mock it up and find out where the deck is.

Heads: I purchased a set of 440 source heads a while back and stashed a set of ductile iron adjustable rockers about 2 years ago.

Between the parts I've stockpiled and the pieces I can use from the 413 currently in the car, I pretty much only need cam and valve gear, intake and headers.

Intake, carb : I was thinking about the RPM intake and using my holley 750 vac secondary for now.

As far as cam, I just put my combo into the comp cam 'camquest' software and they recommend the XE285HL cam, which is exactly what my buddy Kenny suggested as well. What do you guys think?

Converter: plan on matching the converter to the cam, probably sticking to no more than a 3000ish stall, which is where my cruising rpm is.

You guys likey likey so far?

Best part for me is the budget: about $3500 out of pocket when it is all said and done from carb to oil pan.

 

[super-bee_ski]

I'm following your plan HT413, I'm building a torque motor for the 67 GTX.

I like.
Yor Bottom End seems indestructable...STRONG
I'm doing a VAC 750 like you with the Weiand 8009 manifold.

By Cam choice is undecided but:
Crane Cams has the LEAST amount of CAM complaints of all (currently)

 

[b_body_hopeful]

Sounds like your plan is good....but what is your thought about the converter? I am just asking for me.

 

[HT413]

Sounds like your plan is good....but what is your thought about the converter? I am just asking for me.

Not sure, I'm cheap and I have a LOT of patience for the right deal, so I might just see what pops up. Problem is the wrong converter is gonna kill my fun, so I might suck it up and call one of the custom shops.

 

[super-bee_ski]

I'm patiently watching this thread.
My 440 is in shop getting spec'd and checked out.

 

[HT413]

I'm following your plan HT413, I'm building a torque motor for the 67 GTX.

I like.
Yor Bottom End seems indestructable...STRONG
I'm doing a VAC 750 like you with the Weiand 8009 manifold.

By Cam choice is undecided but:
Crane Cams has the LEAST amount of CAM complaints of all (currently)

What cam were you thinking about running?

Yeah if I decide to get a little more aggressive in the future, that bottom end will take anything I can dish it. The thing is, I happen to have these beautiful Manley rods that I was planning on using them but now that I have the balanced rotating assembly, it seems a shame to break that up.

Do I rebalance and use the Manley rods or do i stick with the LY rods? So far by buddy ken and the guy I bought them from both agreed I should stick with the LY's, so that's what I'm probably going to do.

Any thoughts?

 

[lewtot184]

how much do the manleys weigh? are they 1.094 pin or .990? lighter componets are easier on the main caps, the true weak link.

 

[Cranky]

Weigh the rods and see what they are. And you can check what the piston's compression height is based on part number then you can insert all the numbers into a calculator and find out pretty close what your static compression ratio will be. And I really like using custom ground cams and the extra cost really isn't that much and is well worth it imo. If you don't used the Manleys, what will be your plan for them?

 

[HT413]

how much do the manleys weigh? are they 1.094 pin or .990? lighter componets are easier on the main caps, the true weak link.

Not exactly sure how much they weigh, I've been meaning to bring a scale home and to weigh it all. I'll do that tonight.

The rods are std 440 big end and std 1.094 pin.

- - - Updated - - -

Weigh the rods and see what they are. And you can check what the piston's compression height is based on part number then you can insert all the numbers into a calculator and find out pretty close what your static compression ratio will be. And I really like using custom ground cams and the extra cost really isn't that much and is well worth it imo. If you don't used the Manleys, what will be your plan for them?

Alrighty, just entered them into a calculator and at std deck height. they come out to 0.017 in the hole at about 10.3:1 with a 0.040 gasket and 81cc chamber. Don's a member here and he indicated the block was decked to clean it up, so I guess it should end up closer to 10.5:1. A little higher than I was shooting for originally, but I'm sure we can fig'r it out.

If I don't end up using the rods, I'll just put em up for sale and use that to cover bearings, etc.

If you're interested, PM me.

 

[HT413]

Okey dokey, just weighed the shiny pieces...

pistons: 539g
Pins: 160g
LY's: 832g
Manley's: 859g

 

[dvw]

I love budget builds. PTC sells a very nice street strip converter for about $450. Call Kenny Ford and he'll set you up.
doug

 

[lewtot184]

if it were me i'd re-think this. see if you can use the manelys. they're not too heavy and well made, much superior to the ly's. the extra weight is probably on the big end. i'd see if everything can be rebalanced and add some steel caps. then you'd be in a position for later up grades without a lot of worry about the bottom end. the #4 cap takes a beating and keep in mind it's just cast iron. i think the aftermarket steel caps already have the low deck bore size.

 

[Cranky]

It's easy to run 10.5-1 on 93 pump gas. It's mostly in the cam you choose. Some years back I was part of a small block build that was 11.5-1 and was built to run on the street and track. It did run better ET's with some race fuel but it didn't have any problems on the street on 93. And the LY rods will work fine with 540 gram pistons! Not trying to twist your arm on the Manley rods. If the pistons were heavy like a stocker, run the Manleys for sure. Tell you what, you decide if you plan on using them or not then let me know, ok. I have a set of old L2295's and well, I'm not too keen on running LY's with those darn heavy slugs but they will get some ball end mill work before they go into anything I run lol. I can get rid of about 200 grams by doing that but they will still be heavy compared to the ones you have now. 540 (539...what's one gram among friends lol) is pretty light and won't put much load on a rod compared to what a 2295 will lol. Now if you plan on turning 7500+, use the Manley rods but imo, you're not planning on running that much cam and springs to go that high anyways.

 

[HT413]

if it were me i'd re-think this. see if you can use the manelys. they're not too heavy and well made, much superior to the ly's. the extra weight is probably on the big end. i'd see if everything can be rebalanced and add some steel caps. then you'd be in a position for later up grades without a lot of worry about the bottom end. the #4 cap takes a beating and keep in mind it's just cast iron. i think the aftermarket steel caps already have the low deck bore size.

Thanks for the input, lew. I didn't know the caps were the weak point, I always thought the rods were. I think billet caps and the machining are out of my budget, this gives me food for thought. Question - is it possible to add a girdle later? Maybe that's the direction I head in if I get a little nuts with my goals later. Visually it looks to me like I'd need longer studs, can those be removed and replaced at a later date without machining?


- - - Updated - - -

It's easy to run 10.5-1 on 93 pump gas. It's mostly in the cam you choose. Some years back I was part of a small block build that was 11.5-1 and was built to run on the street and track. It did run better ET's with some race fuel but it didn't have any problems on the street on 93. And the LY rods will work fine with 540 gram pistons! Not trying to twist your arm on the Manley rods. If the pistons were heavy like a stocker, run the Manleys for sure. Tell you what, you decide if you plan on using them or not then let me know, ok. I have a set of old L2295's and well, I'm not too keen on running LY's with those darn heavy slugs but they will get some ball end mill work before they go into anything I run lol. I can get rid of about 200 grams by doing that but they will still be heavy compared to the ones you have now. 540 (539...what's one gram among friends lol) is pretty light and won't put much load on a rod compared to what a 2295 will lol. Now if you plan on turning 7500+, use the Manley rods but imo, you're not planning on running that much cam and springs to go that high anyways.

when I chose the gear and tire size I was figuring even with a somewhat loose converter I'd still trap just south of 6000. I figure I want it to stay together to 6500 if I accidentally over rev it or get more serious in the future.

 

[rumblefish360]

IMO, it would be best if you purchase the griddle before any work gets done to the block rather than add it later. Once the girdle is on and tightened down, have the machine shop check and line bore the mains with the girdle on.

Also, the new rods have less Thermo cycles on them.

It is IMO that it is better to be safe than sorry in terms of the build. Over build the bottom with the best parts all ready gathered and machines together for a superior bottom end that will take the intended HP easy and more without batting an eye rather then just good enough for now and needing more later.

 

[lewtot184]

in my opinion, girdles are gadgets. anything in the 500-550hp will cause the mains to jump around, less weight in the rod and piston, especially the piston, help. steel caps are stronger but also have the benefit of creating the "dissimilar metals" effect where the cap and block mate; no metal erosion or galling that i've seen. some prefer the alum cap but my experience has been with steel and light pistons and it worked. i actually prefer the steel cross bolt but i'm sure that's a hoop you don't want to jump thru. you might do some research and compare costs between caps and girdles. or you can do the hot rodder unthinkable (LOL), set power limits and forget about taking the project in direction that's uncomfortable, i do this.

 

[super-bee_ski]

What cam were you thinking about running?

Yeah if I decide to get a little more aggressive in the future, that bottom end will take anything I can dish it. The thing is, I happen to have these beautiful Manley rods that I was planning on using them but now that I have the balanced rotating assembly, it seems a shame to break that up.

Do I rebalance and use the Manley rods or do i stick with the LY rods? So far by buddy ken and the guy I bought them from both agreed I should stick with the LY's, so that's what I'm probably going to do.

Any thoughts?

View attachment 221781

Im currently looking at Crane Cams
The model # I am unsure of BUT it is a Torque Cam,
RPM range: 800 RPM to 4,000 RPM
Smooth idle
Its for a 67 GTX I just picked up. I just want a Torque monster...

 

[HT413]

in my opinion, girdles are gadgets. anything in the 500-550hp will cause the mains to jump around, less weight in the rod and piston, especially the piston, help. steel caps are stronger but also have the benefit of creating the "dissimilar metals" effect where the cap and block mate; no metal erosion or galling that i've seen. some prefer the alum cap but my experience has been with steel and light pistons and it worked. i actually prefer the steel cross bolt but i'm sure that's a hoop you don't want to jump thru. you might do some research and compare costs between caps and girdles. or you can do the hot rodder unthinkable (LOL), set power limits and forget about taking the project in direction that's uncomfortable, i do this.

I value your input for sure, but I think before I run away with billet caps and cross bolted mains, I have to remind myself that 99% of the time I'm driving my kids to get ice cream. So I think I agree with that last part - let's just limit the power to what the equipment at hand can take.

- - - Updated - - -

IMO, it would be best if you purchase the griddle before any work gets done to the block rather than add it later. Once the girdle is on and tightened down, have the machine shop check and line bore the mains with the girdle on.

Also, the new rods have less Thermo cycles on them.

It is IMO that it is better to be safe than sorry in terms of the build. Over build the bottom with the best parts all ready gathered and machines together for a superior bottom end that will take the intended HP easy and more without batting an eye rather then just good enough for now and needing more later.

Yeah the girdle was just a thought, you make a good point.

 

[super-bee_ski]

HT413
That is why I'm building my 67 GTS 440 up just for torque.
800 to 4,000 RPM range Crane Cam (roller, because it's got the stealth Heads set up for roller)
OR: 1,200 to 4,800 RPM torque Crane Cam.

PS: Many cams are failing on initial break-in.
In my opinion, I have seen some Cam companies have had the high failure rates.
Initially, around the years 2000 thru 2004
The back lobes were "lathing" down...possibly a failure in the Nitrated process...

But: Data shows that Crane has had the least amount of failure over the past decade...

Data can be confusing...
2 types of Data:
A) System error in testing...
B) Random error in testing...

Is failure due to improper "Break-In" procedures?
Such as:
1. Poor break in oil
2. Not enough RPM initially, or too much on initial start-up
3. ETC...

OR
1. Cam not hardened properly...

 

[HT413]

I think when I put all the advice together, I find that most people are telling me the rods can handle those lighter pistons past the point I'll ever take them and it's actually the caps that are the limiting factor here.

So... looks like I'm selling those beautiful Manley rods and sticking with the LY's, since the caps will be an issue before the rods.

And in keeping with my plan of only occasional track usage but 99% family fun, I'll keep the block and caps as is.

What do you guys think about the cam, given the compression ratio and the intended usage?