My Charger lost it's spark.. and I'm running out of ideas.. :'(

[Chryslerdude]

Hello Mopar friends

I am having some problems with my beloved 68' Charger.

This second night, another battle was lost.. so the score now, is 68' Charger ~ 2 / Kasper ~ 0

Initially, thought I heard some valve noise during acceleration, and removed the valve covers to inspect. Everything looked fine, and suspicion shifted to exhaust gasket. Upon inspection, it was "all mesh, and no filling" around the two center ports. Put in a fresh gasket, and bolted the headers back on, but now.. the beast wont start... cranks just fine, but absolutely no spark.

Specs:
(440, w/MSD AL6 older version, from around 2012 / distrib = PRO Billet 85465 / New M&H wiring under dash, and engine harness, and ran flawless for abt 3 years).

I checked wiring, and power to AL6. All is fine, checked the MDS using manual (white cable) trigger = still no spark. (My AL6 has no LED, and thus just appear DEAD)..

I should probably mention, that when I picked the car up from winter storage a few months ago, it had the same problem, but after I fiddled around with all cables and connectors, and changed the ign-coil, it started... and ran perfectly.

I tested the MSD box, and couldn't get it to spark at all.. so, at that point, I wrote it of as defective.. and I thought I'd give the original ign control module a go instead. (I never liked the visuals of the AL6 much anyways, so I thought, that maybe this was the right time to get rid of it, and go back to the original Mopar electronic ign).. also because I bought the M&H engine harness "Modified for electronic ignition" a while back, thinking at the time, that it was "modified for ANY electronic system").

Anyways, I hooked up the Mopar module, and grounded it, but it STILL wont start, and I am running out of idea's... and questions begin to pile up.

Some of these are:

1. I have the "MSD Pro Billet 8546" distributor, and begin to suspect, that the pulse / signal / shorting, might not be compatible with Chrysler's electronic ignition module..?

2. A bystanding friend thought he saw a TINY amount of smoke "escape" from the ballast resistor area, when the ign came on.. so maybe it died right then and there.. (The ballast resistor did not become hot, and nor did any wiring in the region). Question: WILL the car start and run, with a defective ballast resistor?

3. The "M&H harness modified for electro..", has wiring and connectors for a "double ballast resistor".. Question: Will the car run with this harness, and just one ballast resistor?

I hope someone will take a few minutes to answer, and I thank this kind person in advance!

Kind Rgds ;-)
Kasper

 

[yella71]

do you have a ballist now? is there power at both sides with the ballist pluged in? and yes you need a double ballist with the harness you have.

 

[Speedbird]

He's got a lot going on I'm not familiar with.
Like that harness.
I'm thinking he may not even have access to another Chrysler ECU for trouble shooting..
4 or 5 pin.
Even so, the ones we get at the auto parts store are junk.
He may have one of those things.
How about having him check what voltage is available at the positive side of the coil when he tries to crank it?
That might weed out a lot of things.
He needs "good" voltage there when cranking.
Should be right off the start side of the key switch in any system, I'm thinking.
He could even have bad Packard connections at the bulk head.

 

[super-bee_ski]

I'm not sure either
I'd "borrow" another distributor from a friend and try that
I personally have seen 2 MDS/Petronix go bad.

 

[davek]

I just installed my M&H engine harness and bought a 4 prong ballast from the site. I would check your connections and get the ballast. I dont know if the "MSD Pro Billet 8546" distributor will work with the Chrysler's electronic ignition module,I hope someone can tell you if it can.

 

[Chryslerdude]

do you have a ballist now? is there power at both sides with the ballist pluged in? and yes you need a double ballist with the harness you have.

Thanks for your help!
Yes, the original 2-connector ballast resistor is still on the car, and connected to the two lower (dual wire) in the M&H harness.. This setup ran before, with the MDS box. I will check the power situation tonight.. The Charger is stranded in a friends garage, and he's at work now..! Thanks again.. ;-)

 

[MoparLeo]

The MSD tech manual says that the ballast resistor should be bypassed when using their ignition. So you don't have to test it and it says "most problems are caused by poor grounds"

 

[Chryslerdude]

He's got a lot going on I'm not familiar with.
Like that harness.
I'm thinking he may not even have access to another Chrysler ECU for trouble shooting..
4 or 5 pin.
Even so, the ones we get at the auto parts store are junk.
He may have one of those things.
How about having him check what voltage is available at the positive side of the coil when he tries to crank it?
That might weed out a lot of things.
He needs "good" voltage there when cranking.
Should be right off the start side of the key switch in any system, I'm thinking.
He could even have bad Packard connections at the bulk head.

Thanks man !!
I do have some additional Chrysler ECU's as back-up, as I have had some "give up" before.. (From Rock Auto.. probably not AAA+++ quality, but they usually work).. The one on the Charger now, is not the cheapest one I could get.. it's blue, and looks like OK quality.. but looks can be deceiving.

I can test the one on the Charger if necessary, in another dodge. Also, have access to a dual prong ballast resistor.. from a parked van will try that too..! I didn't yet, because it ran with the MSD on the "single resistor".. and I don't have any diagram, which tells me what the two second connectors are for.

Both dash, and engine harness are both new (M&H - 3 years old this summer), so I dont think the problem is there, as both the male and female bulk connectors are new!

Thanks for all your suggestions.. will go through these tonight! ;-)K

 

[Chryslerdude]

I'm not sure either
I'd "borrow" another distributor from a friend and try that
I personally have seen 2 MDS/Petronix go bad.

Thnx.. I tried to hook up the 8546 to a multimeter (set to beep), to the distributor "pulse-wires", and NOTHING happened. Unfortunately, I dont have another distributor to test.

(PS: Cute dog!)

 

[Speedbird]

You can pull the wire off of the starter solenoid while you check for voltage at the coil positive in the "start" position so the engine doesn't even have to turn over.

I've got a blue ECU I keep for back ups.
Some of the auto part store ECUs actually have a fake transistor on the front.
True.

Just a thought. But IF you are going to eliminate the MSD box, you might try this.
It will also eliminate that darned ballast resistor.
I have used one on a daily driver for years with no issues.
Use them now on several cars.
http://www.4secondsflat.com/

 

[Chryslerdude]

The MSD tech manual says that the ballast resistor should be bypassed when using their ignition. So you don't have to test it and it says "most problems are caused by poor grounds"

Thanks Leo

That's interesting.. The ballast resistor has been there all along! I bought it installed like that, and I just adapted the existing setup to my new harness. But, as the MSD box failed the test, I was now trying to go for the original Chrysler ECU. All ground's has been verified as good..

I was actually trying to go back to the original ECU, but as I have had no luck with that either, perhaps I should take the MSD box out of the car, and test it more vigorously, thus eliminating the wiring as the culprit?

Would you guys prefer the MSD, over a Chrysler ECU? ("street only" 470 HP - 440)

 

[Chryslerdude]

You can pull the wire off of the starter solenoid while you check for voltage at the coil positive in the "start" position so the engine doesn't even have to turn over.[/B]

Thanks for the tip.. ;-)

Some of the auto part store ECUs actually have a fake transistor on the front.
True."

Ha ha, crazy.. probably because ppl expect the "classic design transistor" to be there.. So far, I had two defective China / Mexico ECU's.. so, I am ready to try the FBO! Just never knew they existed until yesterday!

"Just a thought. But IF you are going to eliminate the MSD box, you might try this.
http://www.4secondsflat.com/"

Thanks for confirming the quality of these.. I saw another guy recommending these yesterday, and am now in the process of "accepting yet another Mopar-related expense". He even claimed, that they gave better milage, and they are supposed to much better "rev-limiter engineering"..

"I've got a blue ECU I keep for back ups".

I hope to reduce my blue ones to back-up's too..

 

[Speedbird]

Would you guys prefer the MSD, over a Chrysler ECU? ("street only" 470 HP - 440)

I had a MSD strand me years ago with a Challenger.
So I wired a terminal block and orange box on the fire wall so I could swap it over if it every happened again.
Hum.
You may need it.
I don't know, though.
Until wires and connectors are upgraded to accommodate a more powerful system I don't really see the purpose of a higher power system for a street engine.
A 18 gauge wire will only pass so much power.
(Or 16?)
I travel far from home and need reliability over "performance".

 

[Shorthorse]

Go back to square one. The car was running until you did some work in the engine compartment. It's not impossible to have multiple issues pop up at the same time but....
You mentioned using a voltmeter on the distributor but you didn't mention any voltage tests at the critical connection points in the ignition system.
With the MSD ignition, bypass the ballast resistor like MoparLeo said. At least eliminate that possibility. Also, did you remove any ground straps while doing your work? Make sure you have power to the MSD, both the main power and the red keyed power lead.

 

[Chryslerdude]

To much work to try anything today.. But will make several tests / solutions based on your input. Thank you all SO much!

Will post a description, of whatever the solution was, when he/she/it is running again!

About the critical points, I only measured NO power at the coil, but I was not cranking at the time.. (didn't know I had to crank to get power to the coil.. I thought the coil was "hot", as soon as the ign is on..?!?)

 

[danf_fl]

The coil is like a transformer.
Voltage is increased by the windings inside the coil.
The contacts in the distributor set it up to send voltage to the coil (on/off/on/off).
The distributor then gets the increased voltage from the coil and sends it to the appropriate cylinder by the arm inside (by completing the circuit to the spark plug).

 

[Speedbird]

I don't think he has points
What we need to find out is if the coil positive has voltage present in "start".

In a ballast resistor system the start position bypasses the resistor to give full voltage available at the coil to start. When the key moves to the run position the circuit changes to send the current path through a resistor to the coil positive.
The coil functions by SOMETHING opening the negative side of the coil circuit to create a collapsing field inducing a high voltage in the secondary side to spark.
This is the first thing to do since I've got no idea about how his car has been rewire or how to fix that from here.

If you have no voltage there on run that's another problem too.
But that could be anything like the resistor.

 

[Chryslerdude]

The contacts in the distributor set it up to send voltage to the coil (on/off/on/off).
The distributor then gets the increased voltage from the coil and sends it to the appropriate cylinder by the arm inside (by completing the circuit to the spark plug).

Thanks a lot Dan

I am 98% aware of the basic system ignition design, but what puzzled me the most, (besides the car not starting), was the introduction of "modern parts" such as the MSD 8546 distributor.. I was not sure of it still operated with plain out shorting the trigger cables, or if it had a more "modern" way, of triggering the MSD box, than just shorting.

Car runs again.. Explanation on what happened follows below..!

:-D

 

[Chryslerdude]

Hello again

First, thanks to you all for contributing with knowledge and advise.. Fantastic!

The monster roars again.. but there was little to NO logic, in the steps taken to get there!

Before doing anything, I tested the pulse / trigger issue with the 8546 distributor. It turned out, that it DOES indeed work by shorting out the trigger wires. However, the beep from the multimeter, was so short, that it was barely audible. Also the resistor readout in the display, probably just didn't have enough time to update between each short-out, so the LCD display remained unchanged when cranking.

Then I measured the voltage on at the plus side of the coil, and chassis. It was around 5,6V with ign on, rising to around 9,8 when cranking.. so the single channel ballast resistor, must have been working still (despite giving of a little smoke as described earlier).

I removed the "alternative wiring", created to run the system with MSD and the Chrysler ECU wiring..

Swapped the "single channel" ballast resistor, with a dual (nicked of my buddy's Dodge van)

Added a Chrysler type voltage regulator

Tested for spark = NO SPARK

As I already replaced the coil with a brand new flame thrower coil (bought in 2003), I was pretty sure that it would work, but running out of options, I took the coil borrowed of my Cuda, and voila.. it started right up, only to reveal the sound of hydraulic lifters with no oil in them.. which was the reason, to take apart the car to begin with.

So unfortunately, it was not the worn out exhaust manifold gasket after all..

My oil pressure gauge has never been very active, but the car ran SUPER, and as ALL the gauges showed half value, I thought it was a "instrument voltage limiter issue".

The gauge STILL showed a little action, (as usual), but while cranking, the manual pressure gauge showed NOTHING.. I took the instrument off, and arranged a little saliva.. and the poor thing was unable to even blow a little "snot bubble"..

Took off the distrib, and looking down through the hole in an angle, onto the cam shaft, it looked both WELL lubricated, and damage free.. so, now I am ordering a new oil pump.. and crossing my fingers, that no other part has been damaged from running the car (not a lot), with low/no oil pressure!

I would like to get the best / most durable oil pump possible.. and as I never changed an oil pump before, suggestions are WELCOME:.

Thanks again.. all of you, kind B-Body people...!