ran across a pretty interesting Craigslist post, worth a read

[1971 plymouth roadrunner]

I was doing my weekly Craigslist search and ran across this post, I thought I would post it up here and let you guys read it.

Commentary on Classic Cars
I know there are a lot of people out there that feel the same way I do; The classic car industry has taken a crap since shows like gas monkey garage and counting cars. There's too many people out there that think their Richard Rawlings or the Count, trying to sell classic cars. Come on people come down to this world, those guys have a TV shows, that's what makes them popular, yes they can buy a $3000.00 car and turn it for $40,000.00, but like everything else, you're paying for the name.

If you buy a classic car and pay too much on the bottom end, then you dump a bunch of money into thinking you're sitting on a gold mine and a month after listing the car, you don't sell it, something is wrong. Now you figured out that you put too much money in the car and can't sell it, what do you do now?

I'm going to give you an example. I went the other day to look at a 1930 model A 4 door sedan. Now I did my homework before I went, I looked at the book value of that car, researched into how much they were selling for, and figured out how much it would cost me up front to restore the car to get it to a point where I could sell it, so I knew what my bottom dollar would have to be to make a profit. So I looked on craigslist, found 2 cars exactly like I was going to look at, both cars was restored from the ground up, running driving the whole nine yards, nice cars by the way. One was asking $14,000.00 and the other $14,600.00 not bad prices.

So I meet the guy, started looking at the car, car has been sitting for 20+yrs, the gas tank was full of rust, (gas tank is built into fire wall) turned the fuel on and it looked like oil coming out, guy didn't have keys to car, no title, the starter floor pedal would not push in, we found an old hand crank and I could barely turn motor over, there was other problem but I'm trying to make a point here. The only good thing about this car was, it was all there. So I asked the guy what his bottom dollar was for the car, and he said $10,000.00. Knowing I did my research and could buy this car totally restored for $14,000.00. Now let's take a look at this, if I gave him $10,000.00 for the car, I know the paint would be at least $4000.00, now I'm at $14,000.00 already, what I could buy a restored one for. We haven't even got into the drive train and how much it would cost to get it running, nor redoing the interior, it would be well over $20,000.00 in just parts to make this car right, and that's not counting labor.

My point here guys, is come down to earth, if you have a car for sale and you don't sell it within a month, something is wrong, and we all know what that is, bottom dollar is too high. If you invested too much money in a car, and can't sell it, you should have done your homework. Before selling a classic cars that needs restoring, figure out how much it would cost to restore, and base your bottom dollar on that, because people are not going to pay a high bottom end dollar, if the finished product is not worth it. If you bought an old car that has been sitting for a long time and paid too much, and can't sell it, thinking you're going to turn it for a quick buck, you need to get into another business, because people that deal in old cars are not stupid.

Thanks for reading, and I hope this helps explain to all the Richard Rawlings and Counts out there

 

[super-bee_ski]

True comments...

Here is another case in point:
In 2005 Barrett-Jackson sold a Eleanor GT 500E
(The car never existed, there are now numerous ones floating around)
The new owners bid in excess of $250,000 for the car...
He was (is) a Yuppie..she was a trophy wife..


That car recently sold for $90K

My point is:
Sheeple will buy anything...AND furthermore, the Higher the price, the more they want it!
It is stampede mentality...
A frenzy...

 

[44070dart]

IMHO ..I think auctions like Barrett Jackson really hurt our hobby....cars and parts are priced way over what they should be worth ..every guy out there thinks he has his kids college kids tuition sitting in his garage , even if its rusted won't start and knows nothing about its history so give me 10 grand .. I've been enjoying muscle cars since they were new but now its getting to the point where their pricing out the new guys who should be following us ..I'm guilty of watching the auctions because I love cars, but the prices are for number 1 cars that probably cost more to restore than they are getting back and the average person doesn't understand ...that why many ads you see say do you know what this car is worth restored when they don't have a clue what it takes to get there.. and the prices thrown around on some of these stupid car shows (gas monkey example) ..come on 40 grand for a stock driver 64 Impala ... the figures thrown around are absurd .. but some people want to believe their junk pile is worth a small fortune ..to bad for the newbies

 

[fratzog lover]

Excellent post. So true.

 

[Coyoteduster]

Great post, and with the current state of the hobby with respect to pricing, this theory has never been more relevant.

 

[Car Nut]

I've found a 1930 model A 4 door sedan in a farmers field and the owner was his brother. The car was free, bullet holes were not extra.

 

[Budnicks]

Some people seem to forget, especially if your paying someone else to preform the rustoration
the $20k-$30k-$50k+ in labor costs today or the extra $20k-upwards of $50k in parts,
for a car that's only worth X amount of $'s to begin with "fully restored"...

Then there's those that sell at action for big $$$$$$,
they sometimes are done to a very high standard &
already have spent the funds, time & hassles finding rare parts,
to get the car done & straight {or near perfect}
they also have a captive audience, with money in the room, that are there to buy also,
that have $$$$ also, partially why the can demand the much higher prices,
at an auction setting, like Barrett Jackson {especially with a 99% no-reserve} or
even some or most of Mecum's or Auctions America {RM, Gooding Co. etc.} stuff,
that most are or occasionally overpriced & doesn't/don't meet the high reserves/expectation,
it's skewed the perceptions of actual real worth/values...

Too many people/seller think they are an elite seller with a captive audience,
at an auction setting !!
when they are trying to get top dollar for their collector cars,
sales advert.'s on E-Scam & Craigslist etc....

It's like comparing apples & oranges !!
even between what auction your at,
let alone to the general public listings on website or in a local paper,
Autotrader, E-Sam or Craigslist etc.

some buyers & some sellers are both totally clueless....

IMHFO It's not the auction houses, that's the problem at all...
They have actually stimulated the market & sales, even some re-pop co. parts,
{especially Mopar stuff, we never had before} fab/body & paint & specialized resto-shops resurgences...
It's always fluctuating too, it's never the same any year, always highs & lows, people change...
I've heard they are killing the hobby for 40+ years now, it hasn't happened yet !!
It's just a different market & a few different clientèle...

my $0.02 cents

 

[Bruzilla]

I think the guy who wrote that post was spot on, but only on one segment of the car selling population, that being the guys who have cars they've had since Christ was a pup or they inherited from someone who had them forever. These folks have no idea what restoration costs are or where the market is. But the good news is these guys are getting fewer and fewer.

Another segment of the population are the guys who snapped up project cars when the prices were top of the mark with the intention of holding on to them and selling them for even more later on. Most of these guys are already way underwater on these cars and they don't want to admit to themselves they paid too damn much for them or that they'll be taking a loss when they sell them. For years I saw guys buying rusty parts cars for $20,000+ because "it's a big block car!", and now those cars are selling for $5,000 if you can find a sucker to buy it. The idea of losing $10k to $15k just sends these guys into Crazyville and they get angry and start accusing you of lowballing them.

At least the guys in the inherited group usually listen to reason because they don't have a lot of money, or none at all, invested in their cars, but the more recent buyers are just so freaked over losing money they can't sell. There's a dude like that here in FL who's been trying to sell an unassembled, unpainted, barely started 73 Roadrunner for $8,000 for close to three years now.

 

[steve from staten island]

Heres the thing for me i bought a complete mostly original sport satellite convertible optioned nice with a 383 for 3grand which i think is a good price. Now i want to do a good restoration on the car and have a reliable driver which will run and look good. Ive been told i should part out the car as it will never be worth much more than 20 grand.Ive figured by the time the car is done and done right I'm into the car for 30plus. For me i don't care,its my car i know it top to bottom and I'm proud of what i accomplished. If every classic car owner looked at the hobby as a dollar and cents profit maker,we'd have no hobby left

 

[Meep-Meep]

The one fact that I see is most people don't like the cars so much as they like the money. Seems everyone is a flipper these days. Not saying that I wouldn't mind making a buck here and there but in reality I'm more of a collector because I actually like the cars. That also doesn't mean that I'm willing to dump 4 times the value into my RR. For me I have always had in parts what the car was worth as a whole so my payback was to drive the wheels off it for 30 to 90 K miles.

 

[dieseldazzle]

Im not into classic cars for the money. They could be worthless for all I care. Im into it because it was part of my childhood, adolesence and adulthood. I made memories.

I know make priceless memories with my son, another generation.

Watching him fall asleep in the back of my 67 charger as it runs down the freeway at 70mph with the suttle hum of the flowmasters is what I call priceless.

Watching his 7 year old eyes light up when we pull into a mopar show with my charger is priceless.

Seeing him talk to all ages of folks from all walks of life as he feverishly polishes the old dull paint on the charger as it sits at a car show or motor event is what I call priceless.

Rants about the price of these cars, to me, is ridiculous when the memories made are priceless.

When you are flat on your back in a hospital bed you have those priceless memories with you and nothing else.

 

[Bruzilla]

Collectors are a whole different breed than inheritors with nothing but a financial interest in their cars and flippers, and aren't an issue. They are the ones who want a specific car, not money, and you don't see them placing their cars up for sale very often. It's the other two groups who have issues.

 

[44070dart]

all I know is I got back into it in the mid 80's with a nice shoebox 66 Chevy II with a great 327 for $2200 ..but I'm just a blue collar guy with 2 daughters to put through college and two weddings so that was sold and a number of semi-drivable cars followed..little by little over the years I wound up today with 2 cars total value maybe 30k ....but where does the new guy come in ? ....at 12/15 grand for a reliable driver but with 2 kids and their education hanging over his head, I don't know sounds a little steep for a hobby ( especially if his wife is not into it ).. and if he spends less and gets a #4 car parts for it will keep it in the garage for some time and thats how they lose interest ..these cars are the memories of teenage years for us gray beards but for the new guys its a leap into their fathers past not theirs, easy to lose interest and move on.. sorry just rambling I guess cause I'm snow bound ,cold and bored.

 

[PolaraLover64]

I totally agree with all of you guys. I (as well as some of you) think people are only interested in the classic cars because they think they can get money out of them. I am 18 and the oldest and only girl of my parents kids and i was raised in old pick up trucks, i went
(and still do go) to car shows and drag races on the weekends to make memories and learn more about classic cars. I could care less how much money i could get out of my car or what its worth (or not worth) to others. As long as i like it thats all that matters. I wish other people (not you guys) thought the same way and didn't just use classic cars (regardless of the condition) to try and put a fat wad of cash in their pockets. (Just my input on things anyways)

 

[Meangene83]

As a 30 year old guy. Having not been around when these cars were at their peak.
I love these cars for the 40 year history, style and POWER.
It seems amazing to me that 40 years ago, these feats of engineering were accomplished WITH SUCH STYLE. I love honoring that history, in my eyes I hope to restore my car to keep it going for another 40 years. Part of a lineage.

To me these cars are the way a REAL car looks. They are classic, and the classics should always be celebrated.

great thread guys, great read.

 

[HawkRod]

Why are so many car guys (and gals) so obsessed with what their cars are worth????

Look, the other day DH showed a nice picture of him and his family snowmobiling. Did we all break into "what is the sled worth?". "Can you sell the sled for more than you have invested in it?" No.
If I take up skiing, I buy skis, bindings, boots, coats, etc. Now while I may talk (or complain) about the cost to get into the hobby, I don't buy the skis to sell them for a profit! I buy the skis to use and enjoy them and be part of the skiing hobby. The cost of the skis is the price of admission to ski. Some guys with more money might have nicer skis - no different than the car hobby.

So why is damn near every classic car guy obsessed with the cost/value? Look I will likely have more money in my 70 Road Runner than what it will be worth. I am building my car to use and enjoy, so I could give a crap that I will be "under water". So people should decide: Are you doing this car stuff as a business or as a hobby?

I agree completely with dieseldazzle. Do this stuff for fun and family, or do it as a true business and serve the hobby as a respected vendor. If you choose to do it as a hobby, then stop constantly fretting about the investment value.

One final note: I agree with much of what the the Craiglist writer said, except a I have a bit of issue with his logic. By his logic, the value of a car shouldn't be more than the restored value minus the cost do fix it. This would mean that all cars except those worth north of $100,000 should be free - or actually, the seller should pay us to take them! Yes, we do much of the work ourselves, but if you farm out a complete restoration you can easily have $100,000 in a car. So his logic really doesn't make sense.

<Rant off> OK. I feel MUCH better now!!! :grin: