Suggestions on this Car before buying?

[FridayGt]

Well, I'll hold off on posting pictures, as it's not my car yet to post pictures of, but I'm going to look at a 70 Roadrunner this weekend and want to get suggestions on a couple of things to look at.

First, there is some pretty good bubbling rust on this car around the rear quarters, paint crackin around the small triangle window up front, non-funtioning odometer and non-functioning gas gauge. The guy's been really upfront with these issues which is nice.

It was originally an auto on column 383 with really not many options except A/C. The A/c has since been removed and there is a nom 440 in it now. This all happened before he purchased it, so he has no information on the 440 that's in it or where it came from. Apart from verifying that it is a 440, is there anything I could look for to identify this engine? The reason I ask is that I nearly bought an Olds 442 with a 455 big block in that turned out to have been pulled from an Olds delta 88 with a huge whompin 230 horsepower.... lol. I just want to make sure I'm not getting into the same situation.

On a side note, how do you all more experienced guys make a realistic offer without offending someone? I mean, I understand full well that value on these things is different in just about every set of eyes to gaze on them, but the market is the market and that's what I'm trying to go off of. Given the work that he has into the car, the current state it's in and the competition on the market and the state of the competition, his vehicle is worth a fair bit less than he's asking. He's basically asking the price his vehicle would fetch if it was in non-rusted numbers matching condition. The only reason I'm entertaining is that I like the car, it's a reasonable driving distance and he's asking for offers. I could quite easily make a power point presentation on why his car is worth what I'm willing to pay, but in the end, I'm not their to devalue the car in his eyes, I'm there to make a purchase if it's in my best interest. I'l be there with cash in hand a buddy driving me and a flat bed on stand-by, so if the price is right, I'll defenitely buy.

Thoughts, opinions?

 

[70rr-brian]

I would be curious what he is asking for it. But based on your description without pictures I would say no more than 11-14k.

The 440 will have the date of casting stamped on the side of the block. But what was done to it? I mean yeah a mid 70's 440 sucks compared to a late 60's early 70's motor. But a 440 from a bad year could easily run as well as good year with a performance minded rebuild. (forged crank, higher compression, head work, etc...) Drive it and see how it runs. A worn out late 60's 440 could run like crap too.

The main thing is be sure it is a roadrunner. RM VIN and that the numbers on the radiator support and under the trunk weatherstripping about 6 inches down from the upper left hand corner match. Lots of satellites get rebodied to be RR's.

As far as how to deal with the lower offer. Explain to the guy why your offer is what it is. If you are serious tell him that is a standing offer if he wants to call you down the road if he can't sell it for what he is hoping to get. I personally wouldn't be worried if you offend him or not. Just explain your position tactfully and he will understand. And if he doesn't....well $%^& him.

But at the end of the day...it is worth what you will give for it.

 

[Meep-Meep]

I'll say 70rr summed it up nicely for you however there are some tell tale signs that will ID the engine year just by looking at it from the hood view - assuming it's an unaltered drop in. Late model heads always seem to have a raised casting line or two near the end freeze plugs. TQ intake and carb or a square bore carb with an adapter. EGR on intake. Large weight on harmonic absorber. Sure the block can be an early one with late model parts but that will be verified by checking the casting date near one of the motor mount brackets. No matter what a good core late 440 is still an excellent building block to start with and you don't even need to change out the cast crank if you just want a peppy street engine of up to 450 HP. Also make sure it has the fender tag. Nothing speaks as loudly as cash in hand and an empty flatbed behind you.

 

[FridayGt]

I would be curious what he is asking for it. But based on your description without pictures I would say no more than 11-14k.

The 440 will have the date of casting stamped on the side of the block. But what was done to it? I mean yeah a mid 70's 440 sucks compared to a late 60's early 70's motor. But a 440 from a bad year could easily run as well as good year with a performance minded rebuild. (forged crank, higher compression, head work, etc...) Drive it and see how it runs. A worn out late 60's 440 could run like crap too.

The main thing is be sure it is a roadrunner. RM VIN and that the numbers on the radiator support and under the trunk weatherstripping about 6 inches down from the upper left hand corner match. Lots of satellites get rebodied to be RR's.

As far as how to deal with the lower offer. Explain to the guy why your offer is what it is. If you are serious tell him that is a standing offer if he wants to call you down the road if he can't sell it for what he is hoping to get. I personally wouldn't be worried if you offend him or not. Just explain your position tactfully and he will understand. And if he doesn't....well $%^& him.

But at the end of the day...it is worth what you will give for it.

Brian, thank you big time for your post! That is in every way the answers I was looking for! His listing price was $17+K, but when I called he offered $15K without my asking or even bringing numbers into the coversation yet. I was actually thinking that with the issues there were $10K would have been a good deal for us both, considering it would cost me roughly $5K to get it back to the value of a $15K car, but that's a long drop from what he wants. I actually put together a spreadsheet on the guys current competition and 3.5 hours away is a #'s matching 383 with air grabber and pistol grip 4 in the floor. Most importantly, his competition has no rust and their listing price was $17K and I'm sure it could be had for a little less in this market. Heck, his competition was painted a real pretty bronze too. Sadly for his price the further out from the area I get the worse his pricing looks. Don't get me wrong it's a nice car and I would like to have it, just not for more than what's realistic and I don't mind waiting, but he's on a deadline.

As far as I'm aware, and I'm sure as far as he is as well, not much of anything has been done to the engine. If it was, it was done before he got it and he isn't aware. The only things I can tell visibly are that it has a Weiand air cleaner, Holly 750 CFM Carb and an Edlebrock intake.

As far as the numbers go, most defenitely will check those out. For my purposes I wouldn't mind a clone necessarily, but my thoughts on value of the vehicle and most certainly my entertaining this one over others would change dramatically. Thanks again man, much obliged!

 

[FridayGt]

I'll say 70rr summed it up nicely for you however there are some tell tale signs that will ID the engine year just by looking at it from the hood view - assuming it's an unaltered drop in. Late model heads always seem to have a raised casting line or two near the end freeze plugs. TQ intake and carb or a square bore carb with an adapter. EGR on intake. Large weight on harmonic absorber. Sure the block can be an early one with late model parts but that will be verified by checking the casting date near one of the motor mount brackets. No matter what a good core late 440 is still an excellent building block to start with and you don't even need to change out the cast crank if you just want a peppy street engine of up to 450 HP. Also make sure it has the fender tag. Nothing speaks as loudly as cash in hand and an empty flatbed behind you.

Thanks man. I'll take this thread printed out with me along with my list of other things to look over. I have an angled overhead view of the engine compartment, but it doesn't show much of the block if any. On the off chance the seller is a member here or just browsing and given that it's not my car, I'll refrain from posting. If you still think the limited angle view will help, pm me and I'll e-mail it to you. thanks again!

 

[FridayGt]

Well, I just got back from checking the car out and I quickly became hesitant to offer the $10K cash I had in hand. The rust in the quarters wasn't just surface rust and they were defenitely going to need to be replaced. Little bubbles of surface rust were starting to pop up on the kicker panels and the pillars. It was an RM VIN car, but I couldn't find the numbers in the trunk at all to verify against the ones in the engine compartment. The underneath looked well maintained except for the oil drips. He fired her up, she started to go and quit. He gave her a little juiced and the 440 came to life. After feeding a little gas to her, as far as I can tell, as he was the one doing it, she seemed to idle fine on her own. His Oil pressure guage seemed to hold at 50psi, not sure if that's good or not. There was an oil leak coming from right above the passenger side header causing it to burn and smoke barely as it hit the hot header. He has one coated header on the drivers side and one defenitely not. Not sure what sensor it was, but whatever sensor was sticking out of the lower driver's side of the block was not plugged in (or is that the freeze plug?). The trunk pan had, unknowingly been completely replaced before, however, whoever replaced it welded two pieces together with a seem going down the middle and it was most certainly NOT solid. In all fairness the interior was clean and apart from the aftermarket radio, gas gauge and odometer not working, seemed fine spare one little hole in each door in the metal under the glass to the rear of the roadrunner emblem. To his credit, the underneather of the car (was not on a lift) seemed really clean and he produced receipts for a lot of work to include a new 727 torque flight street fighter tranny with a possible 10 miles on it. The carb turned out to be a Holley 750 double pumper, but the cowl hood above it seemed to have a painted piece of metal welded where the callouts should have been for the 383. I'm not certain if this is the norm for a non-airgrabber hood, but I could have sworn the numbers should have been there. There were a fair bit more little issues that I noticed as well, but in all fairness, it's a 40 year old car, in the price range that I'm looking at, which one doesn't have issues?

He honestly seemed like a really nice guy, and I would love to do business with him, but not at the expense of a fair deal. I didn't bother to ask to go for a ride. His vehicle wasn't registered, but I wasn't the most confident in making a $10K offer anymore at that point between leaks, smoke, shoddy unknkown repairs, half a set of headers and far more rust than previously thought to be there so after a 2 hour drive just to get there, I didn't want to waste anymore of his time or mine.

Anyone have any thoughts? I did tell him that I would be willing to consider a deal on the car when he was comfortable with it, but that it would need to be more on par with his competition. I didn't bother showing him the printouts I had made of the others in the price range he was asking for, I didn't feel it necessary. I did, however, tell him some good websites to go to so he could better understand his competition in this market on his own. I defenitely wish the guy the best of luck though, and if he's willing to come down below pre-market crash prices, I'd love to put his Roadrunner in my garage.

 

[Donny]

Well, sorry to say there is likely far more rust on this car than you can see right now. I've taken a lot of B body's apart, media blasted them only to see them needing far more metal than anticipated. One thing is for sure, plan on full qtrs, if the rear window area is rotted, plan on a trunk pan, qtr extensions, and if it was a salt road car (northeast) then plan on lots of crusty rust underneath on the frame and basically everywhere. It will be a money pit; they all are, but, they all are fun, and we get tremendous enjoyment out of the process of building, and transforming it back to life. The good thing is all the pieces you will need are made new today. Good luck!

 

[FridayGt]

Thanks Donny. Yeah, not including the poorly done trunk pan in his car, there was certain evidence of a lot more rust in his trunk. Don't get me wrong, this would be a great car, just at a much lower price. I kind of feel like he probably got taken advantage of when he bought it seven years ago before the economy tanked. But that he didn't really pay much attention to it after that apart from having someone else maintain the engine for him. Actually, I found myself explaining a lot to him about his own car, which was kind of scary...

Especially given my overall lack of knowledge being so new to all of this.