Thoughts on resto for non-numbers matching car...

[kllrbee]

Hey guys,
Id like to get some input from you guys on my 69 Coronet project.
Kind of a "what would you do?" type of situation.

First off, I need to say that this is my first real resto. I have done plenty of swapping motors, rebuilding carbs, and tinkering in general. So Im not a complete noob with a wrench. But....I have done zero bodywork and never a complete teardown. So not to sound like a (insert vulgar female comment here), but I am rather intimidated by the whole thing as I dont want to screw things up (especially bodywork). Just being honest here.

My car started life as a 6 cyl, butterscotch, and Im assuming it was a granny grocery getter.
Guy that had it before me did a mild resto, which was pretty crappy IMO. Threw in a mild 383, 4 bbl 750 eddy, shift kit in the 727, and painted it Y2.

When I got it, I planned on driving it as is, but you know how that goes.
I started out wanting to do a disc brake swap in the front, and since I was in there, decided to do the front suspension. It also needed a new vinyl top, so I ripped the old one off.
Well I figured since I got it torn down that far, I might as well go further. So I was planning on a complete teardown/resto.
Ive put together what should be a very respectable 451 to replace the 383. (details about that will be coming later in another post). Also have the Six Pack setup to sit on top. I plan on rebuilding the 727 too at some point. I was going to stick with the 8 3/4 rear end but might switch out the pumpkin cuz it has 3.23's. I was thinking 3.91's would be more appropriate. OR if I get some money, go with a Dana 60/4.10's. Also, got a 2600-2800 stall converter to throw in the mix. More on all that will come later when I get to that point.

The basic jist of it is that almost everything in this car has been replaced. I would like to build it to at least "look" like a 69 1/2 M12 car. Wont be a true tribute as it has a 451 instead of 440 among other things. (Headers, non ralleye dash, etc).

I already have about 16K into the car and I figure in order to do a complete resto, its gonna cost another 16k for paint/bodywork/sheet metal. I have no idea if 16K is accurate, but thats what figure I came up with.

So my question is, is spending 32K on a non numbers matching car even worth it? One of the reasons I started pondering this is cuz I saw a true 69 1/2 Superbee in the For Sale section here for 47K. And I thought "Man, another 15K and I could have the real thing".

Ive heard folks use the term partial resto, but to be honest, I dont even know how a partial resto would work or what they mean by it. I mean, you gotta tear it down to see whats underneath the paint everywhere anyways, right? And the cancer needs to be replaced with new metal. So whats a partial resto? Bondo?

Anyways, I realize you guys cant "tell" me what to do with my car. I gotta do what makes me happy. But Im just curious on which way you would go.

FWIW, I am obviously not looking to win trophies with it. Its going to be a driver/cruiser, but I want it to look as good as it can.

Any advice or opinions are appreciated and I apologize for the rant. LOL.

 

[OhioMopar]

My R/T was completely stripped to the point of being a shell with a c-body 8.75 under it and no steering, brakes, or anything else that worked. I had no build sheet or fender tag to go by, so I decided to do it my way. I could have been money ahead to buy something done, I have probably $16,000 into it and it still isn't done, but I will have a car that I want and the way I want it.
I would go with the vision in your head and don't turn back. If you like the car(what's not to like about a '69 Coronet?), do it hte way you want. If you want to beat on it, even better, you aren't abusing a piece of history.
There's my input, hope it helped...

 

[TruBee]

I agree with Ohio. I took a 318 a/c '69 Coronet and threw in a '69 non-vin warranty replacement block 440. Removed the non-rallye dash and created my own. Threw on a Power Bulge Hood, front discs, nice rear, suspension the whole nine yards. And finished with a "DNA Enriched" super bee tribute. And painted it with a 1970 color! 50k, yes 50k later I have a nice car that I can drive or race, and most importantly enjoy! Why have a car which, you have to rope off in the garage and scare the kids away from? Build the car which you envision enjoying the most! You can't take your money with you. And believe me, the people you leave it to, will squander it one themselves with the quickness! You only get one lap in this life. What do you want to do it in?

 

[Coronet 500]

I think you answered your own question when you said "I gotta do what makes me happy".

 

[63RedFury]

No sell it and buy the real thing.I will give you $350.00 for it LOL

 

[hunt2elk]

My R/T was completely stripped to the point of being a shell with a c-body 8.75 under it and no steering, brakes, or anything else that worked. I had no build sheet or fender tag to go by, so I decided to do it my way. I could have been money ahead to buy something done, I have probably $16,000 into it and it still isn't done, but I will have a car that I want and the way I want it.
I would go with the vision in your head and don't turn back. If you like the car(what's not to like about a '69 Coronet?), do it hte way you want. If you want to beat on it, even better, you aren't abusing a piece of history.
There's my input, hope it helped...

I agree 100%. I also think 96 butterscotch with a black rump stripe is one of the best looking A12's made, if you are thinking of going back to the original color.

 

[696pack]

Here are the hard and sad facts. ANY tribute car will only ever at best be worth the sum total of it's parts when dismantled and not anywhere near that value as a complete car. The parts are typically worth more individually but you have to factor in the cost of dismantling and the time it takes to sell, some times over years.

It doesn't take much to figure out in this market that you can buy a complete done car for less than you can restore a real one OR a tribute. The problem is that most regular working guys can't come up with ALL the cash at one time to buy one and this is why so many people end up buried in cars that are worth WAY less than they have in them. Many people will say they don't care because they do it for the love of the car and the satisfaction of doing it themselves. This is likely not true with even most that say it as it is only justification for the position they are in. NO ONE WANTS to have more invested in anything than what they can sell it for if they can help it.

Now, OTOH, you can look at it from the stand point of all autos depreciate to justify the lose you will take in the future on any of these cars. I began my career in 1968 at the age of 18 selling new cars and it didn't take long for me to figure out that there were certain cars that depreciated less than others and some after hitting a low began to come back up in value. This began my affair with older Corvettes beginning with my first one in 1969 being a 1958 model. For over 35 years I have only lost money on a couple of the cars that I have owned and I have owned over 150 muscle, sports, antique, and special interest cars.

I have in the past restored cars, bought basket cases and flipped them without doing anything to them, and every combination in between. In this market I would never CONSIDER restoring a car no matter what it is.

So, my advise to you or anyone else in your position is to sell what you have the best way you can for the most money, save additional money over the time it would typically take you to fund your restoration AND build the car in order to buy a done car. You will likely have a car to drive just as quickly or sooner than it will take you to do your car. If you choose to restore your car, take note of the date I am writing this and see if you can prove me wrong.

As far as buying a car that has to be roped off and being afraid to drive, the vast majority of these old muscle cars really don't have the original engine in them anyway. The ones that are REAL PROVABLE original type cars are not the cars that are affordable to the average worker bee Mopar guy that we see on this forum or most of the others. There is a bigger market for the non-numbers matching drivetrain cars than the higher price numbers car. The biggest thing you want to consider is the V.I.N. on the car that shows the true model and engine as that is where the bulk of the "value" is in a collectable car. Most of us in the hobby are smart enough to figure out that these old muscle cars were beat on from new and likely NOT to have a matching numbers drivetrain.

Also keep in mind that there are still special financing sources that will lend on these old cars to people with good credit and a proven ability to repay a loan with a substantial down payment that you can likely come up with after selling or parting out your car.

 

[Ron 73]

69 Coronet!!! Thats a great car, That being said, If this is your dream ride, GO for it, The only suggestion i have thats not going to cost you anything at all but its going to be the hardest to get accomplished and thats "PATIENCE" Learn it now cause its going to be tested later. I would add when you start her, a notebook, lots of Zip-Lock bags and a good marker. Bag and tag everything, larger parts use masking tape, you'll be grateful later along with a camera and film, that for us now and you years down the line. Trust me, no pictures now you will regret it later. Good luck to ya, NOW wheres the first picture? Ron

 

[Superfreak]

Many people will say they don't care because they do it for the love of the car and the satisfaction of doing it themselves. This is likely not true with even most that say it as it is only justification for the position they are in. NO ONE WANTS to have more invested in anything than what they can sell it for if they can help it.

I have to respectfully disagree with this comment because there are a lot of people out there that fix up these old delights simply because they love doing it and I am one of those people. Unfortunately projects can take longer to complete due to the lack of money with this crappy economy. My car when completed will stay with me until I can't drive anymore and yes that could be tomorrow but I live for today and not for when I am dead. I agree that if you are looking for a return on your car as an investment then yes it would be somewhat silly if not stupid to put double or triple the money into any kind of hopeful investment when you already know its base worth. The decision is always up to the person them self or the one holding the money ( maybe a wife ). My car turned out to be a complete rust bucket which turned into a major project so I started building what I wanted. Here are a couple of pics to show my point which is not to be afraid of diving into the car full throttle, just think about it hard first to see if you really want to spend all that extra money.

 

[eagleone1983]

Very well put Superfreak. I'm just like you I'm rebuilding my car because it is something I've always wanted to do. Whether or not I get a return on it has no bearing to me because I plan on keeping the car in the family and passing it on to my daughter some day...she is currently 2 months old so I'll be driving it for a long while and plan on building more than just a car but thousands of family memories. Okay enough with the sappy stuff

 

[SirSixPack]

I agree with Superfreak. I don't do what I do for any real economic sense, because I am not a pro. I do what I do with old Mopars because I think it's fun. Like my wife is fond of saying "it keeps me out of the bars". Plus, I look at these cars like works of art that everyone on the road can enjoy. The real satisfaction is seeing someone else admiring your classic and asking you if you did it yourself and answering "yes". To me it's like buying a beautiful painting or painting it yourself. One takes just money. The other takes money, talent, motivation and knowledge of your craft.

I could "waste" more money doing what some other guys do, like fish, hunt, ride around on Harleys dressed like bikers, etc. None of those hobbies really appeal to me, and IMHO give much less bang for the buck in satisfaction. And you can spend as much money on them and get even less in return.

My dad was a biker, and had nothing to show for it but some old bikes that barely ran. My brother in law buys boats and marine motors to fish, has bought three in the last couple years. My best friend blew $8,000 last year on some prime hunting lease and didn't even bag a buck. (Not to mention the thousands he spends on rifles, scopes, 4-wheelers, etc). All added up, that is some of the most expensive meat and fish on Earth. And a ton of hours and cash with very little to show for it.

I'll stick to old Coronets, Cudas and Challengers. And even if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, my wife can sell them all on EBay and get much much more than just a Harley, deer rifle assortment or bass boat.

 

[696pack]

"Many people will say they don't care because they do it for the love of the car and the satisfaction of doing it themselves. This is likely not true with even most that say it as it is only justification for the position they are in. NO ONE WANTS to have more invested in anything than what they can sell it for if they can help it."

I knew this would hit a nerve with some. You guys overlooked some key words in my above comments, which I have bolded. However many use the same justifications you guys have spelled out in your post to simply try and satisfy themselves, their wives, and others.

The point here is that I was answering the original poster and giving him MY opinion and some examples of what kind of position he could find himself in. He also has zero body and paint experience which means that after attempting it he will likely give up and have to pay for it, or do a sub-standard job that he will not be satisfied with. After wasting a lot of money on materials he will get to pay for them AGAIN and also have to pay a pro to do it over.

Unless you already have the tools and experience to do a professional job or you are going to purchase all you need and plan to do many restos in the future to spread the cost over many vehicles you can make it pencil out. The original poster sounded to me like he was looking to do the most economical thing.

 

[Superfreak]

"Many people will say they don't care because they do it for the love of the car and the satisfaction of doing it themselves. This is likely not true with even most that say it as it is only justification for the position they are in. NO ONE WANTS to have more invested in anything than what they can sell it for if they can help it."

I knew this would hit a nerve with some. You guys overlooked some key words in my above comments, which I have bolded. However many use the same justifications you guys have spelled out in your post to simply try and satisfy themselves, their wives, and others.

The point here is that I was answering the original poster and giving him MY opinion and some examples of what kind of position he could find himself in. He also has zero body and paint experience which means that after attempting it he will likely give up and have to pay for it, or do a sub-standard job that he will not be satisfied with. After wasting a lot of money on materials he will get to pay for them AGAIN and also have to pay a pro to do it over.

Unless you already have the tools and experience to do a professional job or you are going to purchase all you need and plan to do many restos in the future to spread the cost over many vehicles you can make it pencil out. The original poster sounded to me like he was looking to do the most economical thing.

I was not trying to bite your leg off with my reply, just simple car talking conversation. I agree with a lot of what your saying but not really my place to opinionize the position other people have themselves in. I am currently helping a friend restore a 69 RR 4spd coupe that just so happens to be a 1 of 1 according to Galen Govia ( I hope I spelled that correctly ). My friend works in an office and has no prior experience with working on cars and just about gave it up until I offered my help. He had built a shop with his brother in-laws help and bought some tools and I sold him one of my welders and he is now using my sand blaster. He also bought a new rotisserie and we got the car spinning before he started blasting. These are things I have herd many people doing and hay we all need something to do while we are here on mother earth don't we.

 

[kllrbee]

Hey guys,
OP here...didnt mean to cause an argument or anything....LOL.

I really appreciate all the replies! And I definitely can see both sides of it.

Id like to clarify a few things though.

1) I really dont have a problem spending the money....so its not that. I didnt mean to come off like a cheapskate.
To put it bluntly, I probly should have asked "Would I be an IDIOT to dump a bunch of money into something that is a non numbers matching tribute car?"
And Id like to say that that question has clearly been answered by your replies, so thank you.

2) I also want to state that I have no intentions of selling the car once its done, so flipping it for profit or for what I have into it is not an issue.

3) As far as the resto, I am going to gut the car, and take it down to bare metal. That is all I personally plan on doing for the body. A shop will be taking care of the rest (replacing cancer with new metal, paint, etc.). I would love to learn how to do these things, but I just dont have the experience so Ill leave it to the pro's. At least Ill do all the mechanical and assembly. Taht I know I can do. LOL.

4) To 696pack, I really appreciate your honesty. One thing that gets me though is if I was to sell everything I had, first I wouldnt get back what I have into it already. Second, after saving up and getting a "complete" car, I just wouldnt feel like it was MINE. Sure I paid for it, but someone else made it what it is.

5) To Superfreak, your last post kind of brings me back to the original point. Your friend has a 1 of 1. That car is definitely worth a full resto. Mine is not rare by any means.

Im going to do it right. That way, Ill feel that its MINE. Done MY way. And if it costs me more than its worth (of course it will), at least I know by posting this thread that Im not alone.
Plus, that extra money put into it could be worth more than just dollars and cents. It could be experience, pride, and some fun memories. (maybe not all fun...LOL). I know that might sound sappy, and who knows, maybe when all is said and done, I might be like "screw that, Ill never do that again", but at least I know I did it once and that cant be taken away.

Thanks again guys for putting things into perspective. I think Im gonna like it here...LOL. :headbang:

 

[SirSixPack]

However many use the same justifications you guys have spelled out in your post to simply try and satisfy themselves, their wives, and others.

Do you realize how you come off with comments like this?

Back to the point of car resto/mods I am thinking of putting a 6-speed V-10 viper setup in one of my '70 Cudas, on top of an Alterkation coil frontend with an indy rearend. And playing with the idea of a propane injected supercharged engine in a 440 Power Wagon.

How much do you suppose I will lose? Justifying the time & cost to myself and my wife or "others"?

 

[696pack]

Do you realize how you come off with comments like this?

Back to the point of car resto/mods I am thinking of putting a 6-speed V-10 viper setup in one of my '70 Cudas, on top of an Alterkation coil frontend with an indy rearend. And playing with the idea of a propane injected supercharged engine in a 440 Power Wagon.

How much do you suppose I will lose? Justifying the time & cost to myself and my wife or "others"?

I think it is all in how YOU are reading it (or reading into it.) Nothing was meant to throw stones at anyone or anyone in particular, my remarks are regarding the general population of the hobby. Don't tsake it personally.

 

[SirSixPack]

I think it is all in how YOU are reading it (or reading into it.) Nothing was meant to throw stones at anyone or anyone in particular, my remarks are regarding the general population of the hobby. Don't tsake it personally.

OK.

 

[cj's mopar]

Not sure if the was said but build it how you like .
Because most stock numbers matching cars are hard to drive for the fear of it getting wrecked or stolen.
I have done exactly what you are asking about doing and I have 3 very nice clones in my camp now witch 98 percent of the people out there can't tell the difference that they are not real deal. And would now kill to have .
A 69 A 12 clone or Real is bad *** ether way and ether one is going to get the same attention on the street so who cares. Are you going to be selling it to make money or to have fun with a bad *** hot rod that many will ennvy?
My 2 cents- good luck with your project!
Here's a picture of my camp together.
Let see I could have one real one or all three LoL

 

[Budnicks]

^^^ agree with his statement above ^^^^

But;
a 12 y/o thread ?
I wonder if & what he did actually do ?

I don't think most any of them that posted,
are even still active here either
some haven't been seen for 10+ years
most have been long gone

 

[Black_Sheep]

Not sure if the was said but build it how you like .
Because most stock numbers matching cars are hard to drive for the fear of it getting wrecked or stolen.
I have done exactly what you are asking about doing and I have 3 very nice clones in my camp now witch 98 percent of the people out there can't tell the difference that they are not real deal. And would now kill to have .
A 69 A 12 clone or Real is bad *** ether way and ether one is going to get the same attention on the street so who cares. Are you going to be selling it to make money or to have fun with a bad *** hot rod that many will ennvy?
My 2 cents- good luck with your project!
Here's a picture of my camp together.
Let see I could have one real one or all three LoL

View attachment 1587751

The original post is from 2011 but your remarks still hold true today…