440 cam eating bearings

[68Dart470]

Had RPM Racing Engines do my block work and install the cam bearings using the cam I'm intending to use so they are correct. Had them buy the right mains and rods too.

Wow, wish they were a little closer to me. That looks like a top-notch shop.

 

[Challenger340]

You were doing fine until you got to the "Scotch-Brite" part. Cam bearings are "Babbit" and can NOT be scotch-brited or sanded. You WILL embed particles and ball up babbit and destroy the bearings. Babbit can only be cut or scraped with a knife to fit.

You spelled it wrong... the alloy is Babbitt with two "t''s.

NO Sand Paper is correct..... but very curious as to why you would mention sandpaper in the same sentence and equating to Scothbrite fibre which is acceptable ?
Yep, Cam Bearings are indeed "B2" Babbitt and we've been doing fine longer than that ?
Because we've never lost a Cam Bearing in a BB Mopar in over 40 years doing them that way ?
You can do the Math ?
but over 1,000 Engines.... never a problem polishing with white Scotch Brite and clean solvent ?

And LOTS are 800-900-1,000 hp N/A Drag Engines running HUGE V/Spring pressures that we see back for freshening every 3-4 years.... never had a Cam Bearing problem !

Now if your shop is some Pigsty that doesn't have CLEAN solvent then that's another matter maybe ?

 

[Challenger340]

Scrape only no sanding or rubbing with scotch brite

NOBODY MENTIONED anything about sand paper.... and NO SANDING quite obviously as that is "particulate" that could indeed embed.... as force/area is sufficient
however,
you are not going to embed anything in B2 Babbitt alloy from scotchbrite... insufficient surface pressure of scotchbrite fibre to penetrate the B2 alloy as too dense... it's soft... but also dense... as long as you are using clean solvent any debris is washed away and will not embed.
We've done quite literally a THOUSAND Blocks that way over the last 40 years and never had a problem, and sometimes a that's all any 'high spots' in the Bearing require.... just a light ScotchBrite under clean solvent.... versus BUTCHERING excessive clearance with a Blade in the Bearing wasting Oil Pressure.

NOT saying a Blade/Cam bearing cutter isn't required in many instances.... they are !
just that any final cleanup can indeed be facilitated with White or Green Scotch Brite and clean solvent

 

[Challenger340]

Most shops today use a jet wash, and the cleaning solution is usually safe for aluminum and bearings. I am sure there are shops that still "hot tank" with a caustic solution, or "jet wash" with an aluminum safe solution that is too strong, but I would say that most shops today use a solution that is safe for your bearings. All you need to do is ask the shop what they have and solution used. I would also disagree with the last statement unless they were already replaced.

My Gawd.... so now we DON'T remove Cam Bearings anymore ? because we're afraid they might get damaged in the solution ?.... and because they never wear out right ?
So just insist your Shop uses "green' soapy stuff to clean your Block that doesn't clean squat... and re-use your 100,000 mile Cam Bearings right ?

The reason we HOT TANK using Caustic is because it still CLEANS the BEST !
I spent $60K over 2 years trying all that other CRAP to find it doesn't work worth a **** ....

alrighty then....
that's why nobody manufactures "new" Cam Bearings anymore.... you just rebuild the Block and re-use the old Cam Bearings the Block came with ?

The lowest common denominator of poor quality is alive and well....
justifying laziness and lack of skillsets with dumbass logic one engine at a time !

 

[polyjohn]

WOW C340, calm down fella!

YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID, that's what my darling wife says to me every time I go on a web site!
Now Cam bearings are the 'bug bear' of most folks life, even the ones that know what they is doing!

Sometime you put them suckers in and 'no probs' other times you spend a whole day 'scraping them'.
That's 'scraping not scrapping' and yes I was the 'Last apprentice' in the UK who made his own bearing-SCRAPER!

Yes back in the early 70's when we was flying to the moon and engineers were still being trained, I was one of them!
One of our first jobs was to SCRAPE!!!

Flat things and round things and anything that needing scraping and scrapping...

You could buy a scraper 'but they was DEAR' and they weren't quite right, so you got the 'old boy' to help you make one (or two)...

Then for the next 50 years, 'YOU SCRAPED THINGS' even soft babbitt (philistine) Mopar cam bearings...

No I haven't 'read the thread' but my moparmate just killed his babbitts that I spent many hours fitting perfectly...

 

[polyjohn]

WOW C340, calm down fella!

YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID, that's what my darling wife says to me every time I go on a web site!
Now Cam bearings are the 'bug bear' of most folks life, even the ones that know what they is doing!

Sometime you put them suckers in and 'no probs' other times you spend a whole day 'scraping them'.
That's 'scraping not scrapping' and yes I was the 'Last apprentice' in the UK who made his own bearing-SCRAPER!

Yes back in the early 70's when we was flying to the moon and engineers were still being trained, I was one of them!
One of our first jobs was to SCRAPE!!!

Flat things and round things and anything that needing scraping'
You could buy a scraper 'but they was DEAR' and they weren't quite right, so you got the 'old boy' to help you make one (or two)...

Then for the next 50 years, 'YOU SCRAPED THINGS' even soft babbitt (philistine) Mopar cam bearings...

No I haven't 'read the thread' but my moparmate just killed his babbitts that I spent many hours fitting perfectly...

Just read the thread, wow, folks need to take a 'chill pill' or two!

I feel sorry for folks who rely on Chevy/Fords shops, but they should be able to fit cam bearings?
No two cams are the same and YES they do need changing after 50 years...

Its a tricky job and it can go wrong BIG TIME, and thats a wrecked engine if you spin a cam bearing!
Loose is always better than tight and 'NO' tight bearings 'DO NOT' wear themselves IN...
They seize and spin the bearing in the block, thats 'steel to iron' contact and that's BIG TROUBLE!

So what goes wrong??? using too much force, fitting new bearings which BURRS them UP.
You may have a BAD block with alignment issues, impossible to fix!
Then there is the CAM, wrong size journals, 'it happens' and maybe bent.
Not everything works 'straight outta the BOX'!!!

 

[69Bee]

My Gawd.... so now we DON'T remove Cam Bearings anymore ? because we're afraid they might get damaged in the solution ?.... and because they never wear out right ?
So just insist your Shop uses "green' soapy stuff to clean your Block that doesn't clean squat... and re-use your 100,000 mile Cam Bearings right ?

The reason we HOT TANK using Caustic is because it still CLEANS the BEST !
I spent $60K over 2 years trying all that other CRAP to find it doesn't work worth a **** ....

alrighty then....
that's why nobody manufactures "new" Cam Bearings anymore.... you just rebuild the Block and re-use the old Cam Bearings the Block came with ?

The lowest common denominator of poor quality is alive and well....
justifying laziness and lack of skillsets with dumbass logic one engine at a time !

WTF are you ranting about?? I ALWAYS replace the cam bearings, and insist on the new cam (If I am not building the motor) to ensure the cam turns freely. The last "hot tank" I have seen was over 20 years ago, and as far a caustic soda solution, let me know who takes the waste from the tank without charging an arm and a leg. Also, I don't use "Green soapy stuff" to clean, I use "Prospray" from Prochem. ProSpray (degreasers.net) After parts are cleaned, they get glassbeaded and then magnafluxed to check for cracks, the other reason ALL extras (cam bearings, freeze plugs, pipe plugs, etc..) need to be removed. I do this for a living, and likely have machined & built more motors than you will in your lifetime. I give advice, tips, and other information when people ask for help. You need to go back and reread the posts, because I was takling about RFEPLACING the cam bearings, not reusing the old ones, so chill, check your fire, and breath slowly...

 

[Brandy]

Wow, wish they were a little closer to me. That looks like a top-notch shop.

They don't do much small stuff for the public. They build racing engines for racers all over the East and North East. It's a sweet operation they have going there. He fit mine in between a couple of big jobs. Time of year was good too, more into the spring season and he would have not been able to do it. They know their stuff for sure.

 

[Brandy]

I just knew that I didn't have the skill set to mess with them, so I had the pro's set me up.

 

[Challenger340]

[/QUOTE]
You need to go back and reread the posts, because I was takling about RFEPLACING the cam bearings, not reusing the old ones, so chill, check your fire, and breath slowly...[/QUOTE]

I did go back and re-read your post quoted below ?

Most shops today use a jet wash, and the cleaning solution is usually safe for aluminum and bearings. I am sure there are shops that still "hot tank" with a caustic solution, or "jet wash" with an aluminum safe solution that is too strong, but I would say that most shops today use a solution that is safe for your bearings. All you need to do is ask the shop what they have and solution used. I would also disagree with the last statement unless they were already replaced.

Here, it would seem you are very clearly indicating that you feel $20 Cam Bearings should be re-used when cleaning a Block for rebuilding ?
"but I would say that most shops today use a solution that is safe for your bearings"....."All you need to do is ask the shop what they have and solution used."
I just can't see a reason NOT to remove and replace $20 Cam Bearings when rebuilding and changing Camshafts ? and I believe it's false economy to believe they can/should be saved when rebuilding other than when doing NAPA store style machine work ?

And NO... I highly doubt you have done more Engines than me in your lifetime.... let be as much HP per Engine which I also do for a living.

 

[69Bee]

You need to go back and reread the posts, because I was takling about RFEPLACING the cam bearings, not reusing the old ones, so chill, check your fire, and breath slowly...

I did go back and re-read your post quoted below ?

Here, it would seem you are very clearly indicating that you feel $20 Cam Bearings should be re-used when cleaning a Block for rebuilding ?
"but I would say that most shops today use a solution that is safe for your bearings"....."All you need to do is ask the shop what they have and solution used."
I just can't see a reason NOT to remove and replace $20 Cam Bearings when rebuilding and changing Camshafts ? and I believe it's false economy to believe they can/should be saved when rebuilding other than when doing NAPA store style machine work ?

And NO... I highly doubt you have done more Engines than me in your lifetime.... let be as much HP per Engine which I also do for a living.

You are reading the WRONG post. The post you are trying to ASSUME I am saying not to change the cam bearings is a response to post #12 talking about hot tanks and not changing bearings. I was merely talking about the cleaning processes for today, and not yester-year. As far as cam bearings go, I responded (Post #2), to post #1 telling him to REPLACE the cam bearings. If you are getting the impression that I am against cam bearing R&R from a post that is ONLY talking about the cleaning processes, then I just don't know what to say...

 

[polyjohn]

April FOOLS is what I'm seeing here today!

Typing stuff on the NET is always tricky at BEST!
Its can be misconstrued in many ways 'the written word' and leads to arguments...
But to spend hours typing about it on someone's thread is deffo a FOOLS errand...

So no more FOOLING around and measuring appendages 'on a cam bearing thread' has to be the most FOOLISH thing ever!
So once 12 o'clock has come and gone, then the Tom FOOLery can stop and a chill pill taken...

Its NOT about 'how big it is, or long it is' ITS WHAT YOU DO WITH IT THAT COUNTS...

Now I have built a lot of engines and thought they was ALL brilliant, but NO they was just very ordinary...

 

[moparedtn]

An interesting story. Never seen a new cam that had the nitriding(or whatever coating) left on the bearing journals. Coating thickness an obvious issue. Comp Cams QC problems!

The Comp stories just continue to pop up, don't they?
What are they doing over there, outsourcing everything?

 

[68Dart470]

The Comp stories just continue to pop up, don't they?
What are they doing over there, outsourcing everything?

Comp will always be the "Scape Goat". The sell more cams than everyone else combined so there's a million chances for an issue to pop up.

 

[moparedtn]

Comp will always be the "Scape Goat". The sell more cams than everyone else combined so there's a million chances for an issue to pop up.

There's far too many reports out there for it to be simply an "economy of scale" thing...
and I've witnessed it with my own two eyes as well (had two bad ones in a row, either cam or lifters since
both were "sets").
They used to be the Mack Daddy. They haven't been for a few years now.

 

[polyjohn]

My Compcams story cost me a WHOLE 440ci race engine!

We ordered a upgraded COMP-cam through a known UK dealer and we fitted it, all well and good.
Did the 'break-in' twenty minutes at 2000/3000rpm and the engine started to run rough?

Took the valve covers off and the iron MP rockers were BLUE and melted!!!
The oil was contaminated with debris and the crank/pistons was toasted too.

GUESS WHAT?

No oil feed hole was drilled in the cam for rocker feed???
Not sure how we missed it, but hey we was in a rush to go racing...

Comp cams said 'tuff luck'....NICE, so we sued the UK-retailer...(so sad for them)

It didn't go down well with the Mopar Folks of England...

No we don't use COMP any more even for a PENNY WASHER... (China crisis)

Crower, Lunatti, Isky, MP, we is spoilt for choice lol...

 

[bandit67]

Would y'all help a rookie bearing installer, me. I have put in about ten or so sets and always dry check each bearing to its journal prior to hammering them in. No problems with any. Now if this was done with several sets to one cam with no problems, would not this suggest the engine block bore on a journal may be too small, thus creating a tighter crush when hammering in...and then a too tight fit....what am I not seeing here...thanks

 

[69Bee]

When the oil holes are drilled, there is raised up material at the bore hole because they are drilled from the main saddle side. Drill a piece of metal and feel the opposite side (exit side). There will be burrs and such pushed up. The factory slammed the OEM semi-finished cam bearings in, burrs, making gouges in the bore, etc.. they didn't really care as the final process was to line bore the cam bearings for fit. Now, you replace the bearings with a "Pre-Finished" bearings, and all of the old original damage will give you grief for cam fit. That is why I say to dress the oil hole openings, dress any gouges in the bores, use assembly lube, and carefully install the bearings. Check fit (don't force it), remove the cam and scrape the high spots, usually around the oil holes. The high spots will show up as dark spots on the Babbitt. Another thing I like to do if I know there might be an issue is to run a ball hone thru the bores which helps deburr them too.

 

[Southern welder]

LMAO
Y’all are a riot! Arguing is the best part but we’re supposed to think that too mean now, screw that!
Thanks for the information I just got a new set of bearings in the mail I’ll try to pop in and maybe it was the stupid machine shop screwing it up! Or burrs
Can someone with a few minutes please tell me what spec my cam bearing surfaces should be? So I can checks, might just mail the cams half back to have it checked regardless
I appreciate all the helpful advice! And the LOLz of the arguments, I’ll just use an arc gouger to take off the badbit (yes spelled wrong lol) ok ok I’ll stop trying to be an instigator
Thanks all and I might be beck hopefully with ONLY good news

 

[Bobzilla]

Would y'all help a rookie bearing installer, me. I have put in about ten or so sets and always dry check each bearing to its journal prior to hammering them in. No problems with any. Now if this was done with several sets to one cam with no problems, would not this suggest the engine block bore on a journal may be too small, thus creating a tighter crush when hammering in...and then a too tight fit....what am I not seeing here...thanks

I was struggling with a tight camshaft on a 360 small block. It was an assembled Mopar Performance short block that sat around for a few years and changed hands a couple times. When I got it I took it apart to clean and inspect everything before using it, and that is when I found the camshaft would barely turn with the timing chain removed and using a wrench on the cam bolt.
I tried a different camshaft and it had same problem. Tried replacing the camshaft bearings and had the same problem. Next time I knocked out the bearings I noticed there was one spot on the outside of the bearing where metal had been scraped, and that is right where the tight spot appeared to be.
I ended up measuring a new set of bearings and the bores and it seamed like the number 4 bearing had too much press fit compared to the others. I honed out that one bore and got the bearing to go in straight and undamaged, and the now camshaft turns smoothly with no binding or tight spots.
I guess that is the long way of saying you need to check for tight tight spots where the bearing material is clearly rubbed in one little spot, then start measuring everything to see if you find a problem.