440 headgasket to lower compression

[kaj750]

I don't know how much detonation has been going on since this engine was put together. But, eventually detonation takes the tension out of the rings and if they are moly...it flakes off. As it gets worse it uses oil. Just looking at the deposits in the pictures..I think some damage has been done. It likely needs honed and new rings.
Probably not what you want to hear.

That was my plan B. At least I would know exactly what's going on and that it was put together correctly.
I have an engine hoist, so pulling it out wouldn't be the end of the world.

Agree. I would start here with colder plug. Simple and cheap.

Not if I do the above.

What head gaskets were in it?

One was a FelPro 8519PT1, the other is a Victor Heinz with no part number

Clean a piston and measure deck height, and measure the head gasket too, before you take it any more apart. Check balancer timing mark against top dead center first too.
Do an accurate compression ratio check (assuming each number for the head from probably 86 to 90 cc's), now that you'll know deck height and gasket thickness.

I'll be measuring deck height as soon as I get the water pump off, so all of that will be out of the way. I don't know that I have a caliper accurate enough to measure the HG, but I can try. Timing will also be checked when I measure deck height. Casting number on head is 3769902, as (I think..?) mentioned above.


Regarding the rest of this thread: I do see darker areas on the HG, between a couple of cylinders. I'm wondering how well it was sealing, though I don't remember seeing any water and oil mixing.

 

[68-500]

HG looks fine between the cylinders. Exhaust valve and combustion chamber look oily on what I believe is #2.

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

Based on what had been said and done already, as the others have stated I believe the cam is too far advanced. No way to tune your way out. Seen it before, water injection solved it, but what a PAIN!

I have the same problem as the OP since my engine was built. I chose the wrong pistons before the cam...California 91 fuel, 10.2:1, 451, 727, 3.55 gears, mild cam, flat top Pistons with reliefs, .015" in the hole, 750 Quickfuel carb, vac advance currently not connected, edelbrock Performer RPM aluminum heads, total timing max is 32 or it pings. I used to run 906 heads and was hoping the switch to aluminum heads would cure the issue - nope. The car runs fine with total timing at 32 and splashing 5 gallons of 100 octane mixed with the 91 cures all my issues at the track, but the only sure fix for street driving on 91 here in CA to maximize power is to change pistons or add water injection. I really should change pistons, but not looking forward to a complete tear down.

@JC Boatguy - can you share a short summary of your experience with a water injection install? Kit? Ordering info? Cost and time for install? Video or other advice? Thanks.

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

Welp ..

Got started.

Looks like the heat crossover thingamajigs definitely were not blocked.

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OP - I thought originally you said you had an RPM intake (which doesn't have a heat crossover does it?)? Or maybe you said the regular performer...

 

[autoxcuda]

I have the same problem as the OP since my engine was built. I chose the wrong pistons before the cam...California 91 fuel, 10.2:1, 451, 727, 3.55 gears, mild cam, flat top Pistons with reliefs, .015" in the hole, 750 Quickfuel carb, vac advance currently not connected, edelbrock Performer RPM aluminum heads, total timing max is 32 or it pings. I used to run 906 heads and was hoping the switch to aluminum heads would cure the issue - nope. The car runs fine with total timing at 32 and splashing 5 gallons of 100 octane mixed with the 91 cures all my issues at the track, but the only sure fix for street driving on 91 here in CA to maximize power is to change pistons or add water injection. I really should change pistons, but not looking forward to a complete tear down.

@JC Boatguy - can you share a short summary of your experience with a water injection install? Kit? Ordering info? Cost and time for install? Video or other advice? Thanks.

What was your head cc for the 906 and edelbrock

I thought edelbrock’s were less?

 

[kaj750]

OP - I thought originally you said you had an RPM intake (which doesn't have a heat crossover does it?)? Or maybe you said the regular performer...

I'll have to back out and look. I've only ever looked at it once.

 

[JC Boatguy]

I have the same problem as the OP since my engine was built. I chose the wrong pistons before the cam...California 91 fuel, 10.2:1, 451, 727, 3.55 gears, mild cam, flat top Pistons with reliefs, .015" in the hole, 750 Quickfuel carb, vac advance currently not connected, edelbrock Performer RPM aluminum heads, total timing max is 32 or it pings. I used to run 906 heads and was hoping the switch to aluminum heads would cure the issue - nope. The car runs fine with total timing at 32 and splashing 5 gallons of 100 octane mixed with the 91 cures all my issues at the track, but the only sure fix for street driving on 91 here in CA to maximize power is to change pistons or add water injection. I really should change pistons, but not looking forward to a complete tear down.

@JC Boatguy - can you share a short summary of your experience with a water injection install? Kit? Ordering info? Cost and time for install? Video or other advice? Thanks.

It was a long time ago, (early eighties) I dont know what brand, but I CLEARLY remember what happened and why. My boss kept bragging about his early 70s Corvette with a 350 that he advanced the cam in it. No other mods. It was a pinging piece of ****! We had plenty of great fuel back then, made no diff. Only thing that worked was (holley?) water injection. I never liked the idea because it seemed too un-reliable.

 

[Kern Dog]

I have the same problem as the OP since my engine was built. I chose the wrong pistons before the cam...California 91 fuel, 10.2:1, 451, 727, 3.55 gears, mild cam, flat top Pistons with reliefs, .015" in the hole. The car runs fine with total timing at 32 and splashing 5 gallons of 100 octane

Dwayne, here is some prelimary numbers based on your specs as I think they are:

I figured the 400 block had a 4.34 standard bore with a .030 pverbore and a 440 crank @ 3.75". I don't know why it comes up as 449.96" instead of 451. Edelbrock heads usually have an 84 cc chamber, the common Fel Pro head gasket is .039 compressed.

What was your head cc for the 906 and edelbrock

I thought edelbrock’s were less?

They are, the 906, 452 and 346 heads are all around 90 ccs when new despite what "published NHRA" specs seem to state.
The most common closed chambered Edelbrock heads were 84 ccs, the open chambered ones were 88 ccs.

I don't know why Dwayne's engine detonates. I have 9.8 compression with the same model of cylinder head and I can run 36 degrees total timing and even with mid grade 89 octane gas! Sure, 4 tenths of a point does matter but he should be able to run 35-36 degrees OR 32 degrees on midgrade.

 

[kaj750]

It was a long time ago, (early eighties) I dont know what brand, but I CLEARLY remember what happened and why. My boss kept bragging about his early 70s Corvette with a 350 that he advanced the cam in it. No other mods. It was a pinging piece of ****! We had plenty of great fuel back then, made no diff. Only thing that worked was (holley?) water injection. I never liked the idea because it seemed too un-reliable.

I used meth injection on a high-compression turbo car once. It was AMAZING until the reservoir sprang a leak and ran empty during a datalog session.
My fault for not installing a "low fluid level" sensor and warning light, but still turned me off of it for life.

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

I used meth injection on a high-compression turbo car once. It was AMAZING until the reservoir sprang a leak and ran empty during a datalog session.
My fault for not installing a "low fluid level" sensor and warning light, but still turned me off of it for life.

my other buddy who is a very experienced mechanic and pushes the boundaries with creative well thought out ideas has been trying to talk me into methanol injection for some time, however, he has never installed one himself.

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

Dwayne, here is some prelimary numbers based on your specs as I think they are:

View attachment 1981571

I figured the 400 block had a 4.34 standard bore with a .030 pverbore and a 440 crank @ 3.75". I don't know why it comes up as 449.96" instead of 451. Edelbrock heads usually have an 84 cc chamber, the common Fel Pro head gasket is .039 compressed.



They are, the 906, 452 and 346 heads are all around 90 ccs when new despite what "published NHRA" specs seem to state.
The most common closed chambered Edelbrock heads were 84 ccs, the open chambered ones were 88 ccs.

I don't know why Dwayne's engine detonates. I have 9.8 compression with the same model of cylinder head and I can run 36 degrees total timing and even with mid grade 89 octane gas! Sure, 4 tenths of a point does matter but he should be able to run 35-36 degrees OR 32 degrees on midgrade.

OP, don't want to take over your post, but just wanted to let you know you're not alone as I too have a pinging problem unless I keep total timing at 32. Your total timing at 26 max sounds like a bigger problem than mine!


If my timing is set to 34 degrees total, I have no pinging under light or medium throttle, only when I mash it to the floor WOT. Set to 32 total I have no pinging at all. I just feel like with this 451 build it should be a lot quicker. I imagine with dished pistons and down around 9.5:1 the timing could be increased and I'd feel an improvement.

Greg, I used to have Felpros on the 906 heads and when Alex assembled the motor, calculated overall ratio when we measured cylinder volume using a water filled pipet and flat plate.
My Eddy RPM heads are 84cc with Cometic gaskets and in the quench zone. I think they are .027".
Pistons are .030" over JE brand (also labeled SRP) flat top forged high-silicon 4032 aluminum alloy Part # 213453 with -6cc valve reliefs.

When Dwayne Porter worked my Edelbrock heads, he ran some calculations and reported the following:
"According to my calculations, assuming the heads are actually 84cc, I get 9.99cr for a .030 gasket, and 9.82 for a .040 gasket."
I was going to go thicker on the head gasket, but then I'd lose the quench, so I just keep the timing down. I run 17 initial, 15 mechanical, no vac advance at the moment due to rate being too fast, so total is 32 degrees, medium springs on Firecore distributor.

My cam is Lunati 60302 (what is the overlap for this cam? I'm not familiar with the calculations)
* Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 262/268
* Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 220/226
* Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .475/.494
* LSA/ICL: 112/108
* Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
* RPM Range: 1400-5800

 

[Geoff 2]

Water injection DOES work in controlling detonation. Goes back to WW2. Do not know if Snow Performance is still around, but a friend used their kit. Getting water inj to work under all conditions can be fiddly, so I would use it as a last resort.

 

[BLK 68 R/T]

OP, don't want to take over your post, but just wanted to let you know you're not alone as I too have a pinging problem unless I keep total timing at 32. Your total timing at 26 max sounds like a bigger problem than mine!


If my timing is set to 34 degrees total, I have no pinging under light or medium throttle, only when I mash it to the floor WOT. Set to 32 total I have no pinging at all. I just feel like with this 451 build it should be a lot quicker. I imagine with dished pistons and down around 9.5:1 the timing could be increased and I'd feel an improvement.

Greg, I used to have Felpros on the 906 heads and when Alex assembled the motor, calculated overall ratio when we measured cylinder volume using a water filled pipet and flat plate.
My Eddy RPM heads are 84cc with Cometic gaskets and in the quench zone. I think they are .027".
Pistons are .030" over JE brand (also labeled SRP) flat top forged high-silicon 4032 aluminum alloy Part # 213453 with -6cc valve reliefs.

When Dwayne Porter worked my Edelbrock heads, he ran some calculations and reported the following:
"According to my calculations, assuming the heads are actually 84cc, I get 9.99cr for a .030 gasket, and 9.82 for a .040 gasket."
I was going to go thicker on the head gasket, but then I'd lose the quench, so I just keep the timing down. I run 17 initial, 15 mechanical, no vac advance at the moment due to rate being too fast, so total is 32 degrees, medium springs on Firecore distributor.

My cam is Lunati 60302 (what is the overlap for this cam? I'm not familiar with the calculations)
* Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 262/268
* Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 220/226
* Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .475/.494
* LSA/ICL: 112/108
* Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
* RPM Range: 1400-5800

I’m not the most knowledgeable on engines but I believe pistons are read as +6cc when they are dished or have valve reliefs. -6cc would imply a dome of some kind. And as far as cams, the duration of 220/226 would be helping contribute to the pinging issue. Less time for cylinder pressure to bleed off vs a longer duration cam, like something in the 240-250 range. But there again, tradeoffs are to be had whether you choose a shorter duration vs longer duration cam. Vacuum, idle quality, etc all come in as factors.

 

[33 IMP]

Whether a dish or dome is pos or neg depends on the calculator used. So, it's important to read the notes/instructions.
I believe Wallace does,his different than others.
Edit: Wallace uses a negative number for a dome.

 

[BLK 68 R/T]

Whether a dish or dome is pos or neg depends on the calculator used. So, it's important to read the notes/instructions.
I believe Wallace does,his different than others.
Edit: Wallace uses a negative number for a dome.

It makes sense when you think about it. Valve reliefs should be + since you are adding volume to the chamber. Dome should be - since you are subtracting volume from the chamber.

Anyways enough thread derailing on this.

 

[kaj750]

my other buddy who is a very experienced mechanic and pushes the boundaries with creative well thought out ideas has been trying to talk me into methanol injection for some time, however, he has never installed one himself.

That does not inspire confidence.

I will say that having an 11:1 C/R car with 13-15psi of boost with a relatively large turbo (Honda engine with insane efficiency) resulted in zero lag and a lot of useable power. It felt like a supercharger.
I do road courses, so 350whp in a 2700 car was sooooo much fun.
But I'll never do it again. Also, I see No reason it should be used on an N/A car, IMO. Not worth the minimal gain.

 

[68-500]

OP, don't want to take over your post, but just wanted to let you know you're not alone as I too have a pinging problem unless I keep total timing at 32. Your total timing at 26 max sounds like a bigger problem than mine!


If my timing is set to 34 degrees total, I have no pinging under light or medium throttle, only when I mash it to the floor WOT. Set to 32 total I have no pinging at all. I just feel like with this 451 build it should be a lot quicker. I imagine with dished pistons and down around 9.5:1 the timing could be increased and I'd feel an improvement.

Greg, I used to have Felpros on the 906 heads and when Alex assembled the motor, calculated overall ratio when we measured cylinder volume using a water filled pipet and flat plate.
My Eddy RPM heads are 84cc with Cometic gaskets and in the quench zone. I think they are .027".
Pistons are .030" over JE brand (also labeled SRP) flat top forged high-silicon 4032 aluminum alloy Part # 213453 with -6cc valve reliefs.

When Dwayne Porter worked my Edelbrock heads, he ran some calculations and reported the following:
"According to my calculations, assuming the heads are actually 84cc, I get 9.99cr for a .030 gasket, and 9.82 for a .040 gasket."
I was going to go thicker on the head gasket, but then I'd lose the quench, so I just keep the timing down. I run 17 initial, 15 mechanical, no vac advance at the moment due to rate being too fast, so total is 32 degrees, medium springs on Firecore distributor.

My cam is Lunati 60302 (what is the overlap for this cam? I'm not familiar with the calculations)
* Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 262/268
* Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 220/226
* Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .475/.494
* LSA/ICL: 112/108
* Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
* RPM Range: 1400-5800

Id retard that cam shaft back to 112 degrees and see how that runs.
I think alot of people are camming 440+ engine like you would a 383. End up trapping to much air to soon and build bottom end power like you would a 383, with a 440+ you all ready have tire shredding power, need to build for upper rom hp’s.

 

[BLK 68 R/T]

What do you mean by retard it back to 112 degrees?

 

[kaj750]

I'm about to pull the timing cover. Before I jump on YouTube (not a fan), does anyone have any quick words of wisdom on how to be sure the cam is degreed correctly and/or how to degree it properly should I decide to pull it apart and start over?
IF I find the cam was installed wrong then I'll fix it, button everything back up, and see what happens.
IF I find that it's where it should be, the engine is coming out for an R&R, possibly with a different set of pistons (I still haven't measure deck height. I know.. I know.. LOL).

 

[RemCharger]

What do you mean by retard it back to 112 degrees?

From 106 or 108, or wherever it is if it's too advanced