440 roller cam conversion questions?????

[6speedGTX]

451, how have your Hughes hyd. Rollers held up? I saw that they are significantly cheaper than the Comp hyd rollers and it made me wonder what kind of quality they are...

 

[68gtx]

if im not going to a crazy wild cam , is the roller really worth doing then, this is gunna be a street motor, of course want it to go good , and sound lopey , should I stick with a flat tappet cam? just a little worried about lobe failure during break in... roller would be nice ! but?

 

[67 B-body]

if im not going to a crazy wild cam , is the roller really worth doing then, this is gunna be a street motor, of course want it to go good , and sound lopey , should I stick with a flat tappet cam? just a little worried about lobe failure during break in... roller would be nice ! but?

Well, a hyd roller would be a good choice for a mild camshaft in regards to risk of flat tappet failure. However, with the correct oil your chances of wiping a cam lobe are minimal during initial break-in.
My points were only meant to be taken when higher lifts and short duration's are being considered. The high spring rates and fast ramps in association with higher RPM, all spells poor results from a hyd roller. I find most people wanting that typical big fast lift with the hyd lifter, not knowing the limitations. I think a solid flat tappet cam / lifter combo can out perform a hyd roller setup....

Here's a good build dealing with these very issues:
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/parts/engine/mopp_0510_mauler_440_motor/

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

if im not going to a crazy wild cam , is the roller really worth doing then, this is gunna be a street motor, of course want it to go good , and sound lopey , should I stick with a flat tappet cam? just a little worried about lobe failure during break in... roller would be nice ! but?

to be honest any self respecting 500CI mopar should have a solid flat tappet or roller!!

dual pattern some where around 245-260 range and around .575-.625 lift on a 110 would be the hot ticket in a roller.

Flat tappets are scary! but if you do the right prep, run the right spring pressures, use correct oil, and have your **** straight so the motor starts up instead of turning over on the starter for two days i think your chances are pretty good. i do a little extra on my flat tappets, chamfer the top, bottom edges on the block, and also oil holes with a carbide bur. zip a ball hone through each bore. if everything is clean and dry the lifters should fall right through, if not you have a problem. good thing about solids is you can get lifters with the EDM holes. Joe Gibbs for break in and a good additive at future oil changes. if money is no object then solid roller is still the way to go.

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I think a solid flat tappet cam / lifter combo can out perform a hyd roller setup....

i actually kind of tested that out. i don't have track times or dyno numbers but only a seat of the pants meter. my hyd roller specs. 246/246 .557/.557 @110 i swapped it out for a dated MP 557 solid flat tappet. 252/252 .557/.557 @110.
i run 1.6 rockers putting my lift around .600 needless to say the solid flat runs like a MFer, just can't say the same about the hyd roller. i love the idea of the hyd roller. no maint, no break in, can idle all day. Might even use it in the future, be great in a lower RPM driver. But 35 year old solid technology will drive right around the hyd roller for a FRACTION of the price.

 

[67 B-body]

to be honest any self respecting 500CI mopar should have a solid flat tappet or roller!!

dual pattern some where around 245-260 range and around .575-.625 lift on a 110 would be the hot ticket in a roller.

Flat tappets are scary! but if you do the right prep, run the right spring pressures, use correct oil, and have your **** straight so the motor starts up instead of turning over on the starter for two days i think your chances are pretty good. i do a little extra on my flat tappets, chamfer the top, bottom edges on the block, and also oil holes with a carbide bur. zip a ball hone through each bore. if everything is clean and dry the lifters should fall right through, if not you have a problem. good thing about solids is you can get lifters with the EDM holes. Joe Gibbs for break in and a good additive at future oil changes. if money is no object then solid roller is still the way to go.

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i actually kind of tested that out. i don't have track times or dyno numbers but only a seat of the pants meter. my hyd roller specs. 246/246 .557/.557 @110 i swapped it out for a dated MP 557 solid flat tappet. 252/252 .557/.557 @110.
i run 1.6 rockers putting my lift around .600 needless to say the solid flat runs like a MFer, just can't say the same about the hyd roller. i love the idea of the hyd roller. no maint, no break in, can idle all day. Might even use it in the future, be great in a lower RPM driver. But 35 year old solid technology will drive right around the hyd roller for a FRACTION of the price.

If I had the Xtra change lying around, I would have went with a solid roller myself. I instead opted for the solid MP 590 with 1.6:1 rockers and a set of Victor heads.
This cam pulls pretty damn hard, so I'm pleased....

 

[451Mopar]

451, how have your Hughes hyd. Rollers held up? I saw that they are significantly cheaper than the Comp hyd rollers and it made me wonder what kind of quality they are...

I only have around 500 miles on the engine, so I can't say how they are long term? After the Mopar show here in Denver, I sent my Keisler SS700 back because it would slip out of 5th gear, and I just got it back and re-installed, but have not driven the car yet, because I am still wiring up the EFI that I installed while the car was waiting for the transmission.
When it was running, I was using a Crane HI6 ignition set for 6,000 RPM limit, and I hit the rev limiter a few times, so it seems to rev fine. Getting the right valve spring pressures seems to be the important part. Also, the hydraulic roller doesn't seem to be much quieter than a tight lash solid roller cam. If I did this again I would just go with the solid roller cam.

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if im not going to a crazy wild cam , is the roller really worth doing then, this is gunna be a street motor, of course want it to go good , and sound lopey , should I stick with a flat tappet cam? just a little worried about lobe failure during break in... roller would be nice ! but?

What heads/head flow numbers, and compression.
The roller cams are nice if you have heads that flow good at high lifts. The Flat tappet cams will work too, but you will need to buy special motor oil like the Joe Gibbs break-in oil.

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

Delicate balance between weight, spring pressures, rpm, cam lobes, and lifter used.

Using high ratio rockers is a good thing - less movement of lifters and pushrods for same gross lift...unfort most BBM off the shelf cams are ground for 1.5s, so just putting 1.6/1.7s on them can create problems. Lightweight retainers and small diameter springs also save weight, even maybe use beehives. Heck, low decks have the advantage cuz the pushrods aren't as long...

I have no personal experience as my current engine is the first BBM I've done, but I just traded a few emails w/ Dave at Crower, and he spec'd a mild hyd roller w/ a 6400 redline. I'm not sure that I'd call them lazy ramps, either. 230/238 @ .050" w/ .606/.588. It's no 8500+ rpm race engine, but for what I've seen in the BBM street world, that ain't no slouch.

 

[Relax360]

Hey guys i have a quick question. I have a 440 im converting to a roller. I am having Bullet grind me a cam. Not super Big 230/238 @ .50 .530/.530 lift. My question is actually about Valve Springs, I am running Edelbrock heads will they need any machine work for new springs?

 

[GrabberOrange69]

...not all engine platforms suffer from hyd roller issues. they work well in SBlocks. i've build several small fords that went 7 grand with a properly set up hyd roller...

+1

It's more to do with all the weight that goes with the valve train in an RB Mopar. Hydraulic rollers perform GREAT in a very short deck motor like the Ford 5.0 - heck, the pushrod is only 6.2" long!

This is a great thread, thanks for sharing all the good info from guys running these cams.

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

+1

It's more to do with all the weight that goes with the valve train in an RB Mopar. Hydraulic rollers perform GREAT in a very short deck motor like the Ford 5.0 - heck, the pushrod is only 6.2" long!

This is a great thread, thanks for sharing all the good info from guys running these cams.

Right. FYI, the pushrods in my 5.0 are 6.75".

Have any of you guys used modern valvetrain in one of these engines? How long ago were your experiences? Please tell me you didn't use 440 Source lifters w/ stockish valve springs and then conclude that it 'just can't be done'.

I just read through this,
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/p...ler_440_motor/
and if I'm reading it correctly, it seems the limitation is how much valve spring they dare put on it because it's a flat tappet SADI cam. They are only theorizing about collapsing a lifter. They simply did not put enough valve spring on it to control dynamics. That says nothing of the hyd roller capabilities or lack thereof.

Has anyone used a Morel w/ say, a 1.300 OD spring...160# seat/440# open? Moly or Ti retainer w/ a 1.7 rocker? This w/ ramps designed for controllable acceleration rates?

 

[67 B-body]

Right. FYI, the pushrods in my 5.0 are 6.75".

Have any of you guys used modern valvetrain in one of these engines? How long ago were your experiences? Please tell me you didn't use 440 Source lifters w/ stockish valve springs and then conclude that it 'just can't be done'.

I just read through this,
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/p...ler_440_motor/
and if I'm reading it correctly, it seems the limitation is how much valve spring they dare put on it because it's a flat tappet SADI cam. They are only theorizing about collapsing a lifter. They simply did not put enough valve spring on it to control dynamics. That says nothing of the hyd roller capabilities or lack thereof.

Has anyone used a Morel w/ say, a 1.300 OD spring...160# seat/440# open? Moly or Ti retainer w/ a 1.7 rocker? This w/ ramps designed for controllable acceleration rates?

They tried putting more spring on it, but the dyno still showed it falling off exactly the same,,,, They too thought it was poor valve control.....
After further diagnosis, they tried placing a solid lifter against the cam to test the theory of collapsed lifters..... The RPM range immediately came into spec with no fall off like on previous runs.... That was it,,,, a lifter change,.......... I think that's pretty proof positive... Once they installed a solid lifter roller cam, they found the same type of RPM rise without fall out as seen with Hyd setups ran in earlier dyno tests...

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

Ah, I see that now. Interesting.

**** lifters? I just have a hard time believing HR is not an option at 5500+, esp w/ almost 10 years advancement since that article was written.

Is there something 'special' about BBM that doesn't let it work? They seem to do fine on BBC and BBFs...maybe it's time to ditch the Mopar and build a real engine?

 

[67 B-body]

Ah, I see that now. Interesting.

**** lifters? I just have a hard time believing HR is not an option at 5500+, esp w/ almost 10 years advancement since that article was written.

Is there something 'special' about BBM that doesn't let it work? They seem to do fine on BBC and BBFs...maybe it's time to ditch the Mopar and build a real engine?

I don't know,,, I think the lifter part numbers are the same for Comp.....
Perhaps the oil pressure to the Hyd lifter is different between Auto Manufactures / Engine designs......

 

[Guido]

1. Oiling is an issue with Roller lifters. Make sure you buy lifters that have proper oiling for needle bearings. Crane Makes a roller that is designed to work with traditional blocks and does not require the block to be bushed for solid Mechanical Rollers. Hydraulic rollers are much longer and need block grinding on some stock castings. When I did my latest Hemi I used a comp Cam with their Solid Rollers that had pressure feed for the needles. I would match Rollers to Cam company if you have issues. Some people ill argue with me but I think Crane or Comp are your two top dogs. Also I used Push rods with oiling thru Push rods for extra top end oiling. I do not know if you can use Solid Roller cams with Hydraulic Roller lifters. But I know traditional blocks do need to have the lifter bores bushed with some rollers. I used an after market block and did not have to do this..

What Does Bushed mean? Bushed Lifter bores? What is that? thanks

 

[Guido]

What is lifter bores Bushed mean? thanks I'm almost ready to assemble my first Hyd- roller lifter set-up. I know it's an old post but would appreciate knowing what that means. Thanks

 

[BLK 68 R/T]

What is lifter bores Bushed mean? thanks I'm almost ready to assemble my first Hyd- roller lifter set-up. I know it's an old post but would appreciate knowing what that means. Thanks

Yes, bushed lifter bores. The original lifter bores are machined and new bushings pressed into the block to create a perfect round and straight area for the lifters. It’s common for blocks to have lifter bores that are out of round or wider at the top vs the bottom.

 

[451Mopar]

I haven't needed to bush my lifter bores, but they were in decent condition to begin with.
I did use the Hughes Engine lifter bore burnishing ball to make sure the lifter bores were round and not ovaled out.

 

[wyrmrider]

going to 11/32 stem or lighter valves plus the beehives and lighter beehive retainers really helps
there is only one mfg of aftermarket Hyd Rollers
but if I was going to build one I'd at least ask Shaun at Crower, Rhodes lifters and Mike Jones, Jim at Racer Brown, others that know MOPAR
(and not call those that think one size fits all- it not a Chevy or those that BS)
BTW whose 1.7 rockers and did you have B3 kit?

 

[451Mopar]

I think I used ISKY 8005A springs 400 lbs/in rate. Was not planning to rev the engine above 6K, so just stayed with steel retainers. The Beehive springs/retainers should be better but more expensive. I ended up using the Harlan Sharpe 1.6:1 rockers. Tried some cheap CAT 1.7:1 stainless rockers, but had issues with pushrod oiling and the roller tips. The stainless bodies are actually nice, but everything else on them would need to be replaced with higher quality parts before I would trust them again.

 

[snakeoil24]

Lifter bores are fitted with bronze bushings to all for a soft metal that rides against steel to reduce wear that steel to steel lifters experience in hi lift roller lifters with high spring rates. Many lifter companies are offering pressurized lifter oiling. But many lifter bores do not support this without restricting the oil passages in lifter oil galley