440 source heads

[Sweet5ltr]

I actually had better fitment with angled plugs; I would have had a terrible time with them if they were straight. I also would like to state if you want a good set of wires for any clearance issues, order a custom set of firecore wires. Pricey, but second to none.

 

[Meep-Meep]

For APPROXIMATELY $1250 you can have almost any customer supplied, clean, factory iron heads flowing what OOTB Stealths will. This would include new 2.14/181 valves, bronze guides, valve job, surface or mill the heads, valve seals, springs, retainers and locks and the porting to achieve the flows.

To prep a pair of Stealth heads, guide honing, valve job, pushrod clearancing (mandatory with 1.6 rockers), bowl and port cleaning, surface heads, new retainers and locks, about $655.

What I get out of this is the prepped factory heads for a medium perf street stomper are still a better deal. And if you don't go with a full porting job (pocket clean up only) and use stock size valves with a proper valve job you can get away even cheaper. Hard EX seats and bronze guides should also be included. The stealth will really come into play if you want mega CFM for a reasonable price. At that point it doesn't make sense price wise to hog on a set of iron heads.

 

[DMR440]

Still waiting for some more reports about the 75cc E Streets. I'd be interested to know things like flow rates for them against Stealths and RPMs if anyone knows of any links to such info.

The only thing I don't like about any of the Edelbrocks are the angled plugs and possible fitment issues with my Hooker headers. I've been told they can be made to work with some dinging here and there but it seems like a big chance to take.

The Mopar Performance version of the RPMs have straight plugs but they cost even more than the RPMs. I think the least I've seen them go for is $1800 from an Ebay retailer.

I talked to Ed Viceroy (Junkyard Ed) a well-respected SoCal BB Mopar head porter and he said he could do me a set of 906s, CC'd to 86cc that would outflow the Stealths for $900 out the door. I mentioned my 452s and he said he wouldn't port them for me, called them "truck heads".

I had Hooker Super Comp 2inch headers on my Challenger drag car. I think from memory number 7 (drivers side front) was the only part of the header that had a small dent for plug clearance which was already done by the previous owner. I have just checked the clearance with my current setup on my Coronet. I have Headman headers with Performer RPMs and there are no clearance issues what so ever with the plugs. Looking at the photos of my old race car, it looks as though things are tight with number 1 plug too, with the Hookers, but from memory the shorty plugs are the way to go as other members have said.

Check out the Edelbrock pages here for the RPMs: http://edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/cylheads/chrysler/bb_perf_rpm.shtml

they flow 291CFM on the intake and 217CFM on the exhaust @ .600 lift. These heads are able to handle .700 lift too but the total flow is 292CFM on the intake and 223CFM on the exhaust. So gasses are discharged more efficiently with a bigger lift, therefor the flow speed is increased which is also important. (something to consider when building up your motor). These are cnc'd from Eddy's and will work extremely well right outa the box, no real need for porting for a tough streeter. Just use a good cam, carb and intake manifold as I mentioned earlier.

The E-Streets have the same flow @.600 as the RPMs: http://edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/cylheads/chrysler/bb_estreet.shtml

but won't allow for any more lift than that. Nothing wrong with that though, and make power up to 5,500. Personally the RPMs are the way to go between the two as engine speed allows for more potential power.

The stealth heads are shown here: http://store.440source.com/Stealth-Aluminum-Cylinder-Head-COMPLETE-SINGLE-HEAD/productinfo/200-1055/

and flow very close to the RPM and E-Street heads as you can see. 440 Source sells the RPMs as well so you can get a complete head price comparison through them. As they often say they will make 550HP with their stroker kit but I believe with a little higher engine RPM etc etc this can be achieved with a 440 at least or the classic B engine stroker. (440 crank). Of course 10:1 - 10:5:1 compression would be essential.

 

[IQ52]

Still waiting for some more reports about the 75cc E Streets. I'd be interested to know things like flow rates for them against Stealths and RPMs if anyone knows of any links to such info.

The only thing I don't like about any of the Edelbrocks are the angled plugs and possible fitment issues with my Hooker headers. I've been told they can be made to work with some dinging here and there but it seems like a big chance to take.

The Mopar Performance version of the RPMs have straight plugs but they cost even more than the RPMs. I think the least I've seen them go for is $1800 from an Ebay retailer.

I talked to Ed Viceroy (Junkyard Ed) a well-respected SoCal BB Mopar head porter and he said he could do me a set of 906s, CC'd to 86cc that would outflow the Stealths for $900 out the door. I mentioned my 452s and he said he wouldn't port them for me, called them "truck heads".

The 452 head is much easier to port into the 280-290 cfm range, but for me they tend to quit at 305-310 cfm. Whereas the 906 takes more work to the 290 cfm range, but will reach a maximum of 330 cfm to almost 350 cfm in our tests. The 906 heads, used in a quick experiment on a 451 stroker with 9.7:1 compression went to 694 horsepower in our dyno tests. Using a set of ported RPM heads (the very same thing could be done with the Stealths) that took the compression to 11.7:1, but still on 91 octane, the horsepower went to 787. Conventional wisdom says the compression ratio alone would give about 55 horsepower increase. They had very similar intake flows but the exhaust flows on the ported RPM/Stealth heads are far superior to the 906. So perhaps the additional power increase came from better exhaust flows. Also the cam would have been better suited to the higher compression ratio.

 

[IQ52]

What I get out of this is the prepped factory heads for a medium perf street stomper are still a better deal. And if you don't go with a full porting job (pocket clean up only) and use stock size valves with a proper valve job you can get away even cheaper. Hard EX seats and bronze guides should also be included. The stealth will really come into play if you want mega CFM for a reasonable price. At that point it doesn't make sense price wise to hog on a set of iron heads.

Yeah and there are so many different ways to get some additional flow that is better than the RPM or Stealth.

Here are the best OOTB RPM and Stealth flows we've seen on our bench. The BEST mind you, we've seen plenty much lower.

lift..................Stealth...................RPM

.100.................73.........................74
.200................151.......................149
.300................214.......................211
.400................245.......................253
.500................262.......................280
.600................276.......................292
.700................281.......................292

Now I can take a set of aftermarket 3/8 stem stainless steel valves, slap them any factory iron head and port them in a hurry and give you something like this.

.100................71
.200...............151
.300...............217
.400...............257
.500...............287
.600...............292

I can reassemble them, put those turds in boxes, stamp guaranteed on them and send them out the door for cheap. But all you are going to have is a guaranteed POS, because all the care and prep work that would make a good sound pair of heads hasn't been done. The stock springs aren't right for the cam, no bronze guides honed to the proper size, stock retainers and cheap locks, umbrella valve seals. But, you by golly, have heads that flow better'n the Stealth or RPM. Some thought has to be put into your build, be it buying new heads or having the old ones rebuilt. Plan for now and the future. There is no one right way to do it.

Doin' it right will cost you more most of the time. That is way I say, if you can at all afford the aluminum aftermarket head.......buy it. But they need to be checked carfully BEFORE you install them.

 

[Meep-Meep]

Yeah and there are so many different ways to get some additional flow that is better than the RPM or Stealth.

Here are the best OOTB RPM and Stealth flows we've seen on our bench. The BEST mind you, we've seen plenty much lower.

lift..................Stealth...................RPM

.100.................73.........................74
.200................151.......................149
.300................214.......................211
.400................245.......................253
.500................262.......................280
.600................276.......................292
.700................281.......................292

Now I can take a set of aftermarket 3/8 stem stainless steel valves, slap them any factory iron head and port them in a hurry and give you something like this.

.100................71
.200...............151
.300...............217
.400...............257
.500...............287
.600...............292

I can reassemble them, put those turds in boxes, stamp guaranteed on them and send them out the door for cheap. But all you are going to have is a guaranteed POS, because all the care and prep work that would make a good sound pair of heads hasn't been done. The stock springs aren't right for the cam, no bronze guides honed to the proper size, stock retainers and cheap locks, umbrella valve seals. But, you by golly, have heads that flow better'n the Stealth or RPM. Some thought has to be put into your build, be it buying new heads or having the old ones rebuilt. Plan for now and the future. There is no one right way to do it.

Doin' it right will cost you more most of the time. That is way I say, if you can at all afford the aluminum aftermarket head.......buy it. But they need to be checked carfully BEFORE you install them.

Somewhere in this thread I said if you start with a factory iron head and give it to a good shop (this might as well be you), you would have a set of heads that were done correctly the first time. Forget countless hours of porting on a flow bench to make a stock set of heads equal Eddys or stealths. Just a proper valve job with some pocket clean up (perhaps your "porting in a hurry" example above), springs set for the cam and send them out the door as a true ready to bolt on head. How bad can that be? I say about $1100.00. Now start with a set of $900.00 stealths that may need another $500.00 worth of work. Again, it all depends on the build. And I understand what you are saying about spend a bit more to get more, but if you can do with less why not?

I'm running high 12's with iron heads in a 4000 lb car. Sure I can go a lot faster but for this engine I'm good as is. In my case I'd be way ahead if I could take the aftermarket heads and bolt them on, but that as I understand it is rare to impossible.

 

[IQ52]

Somewhere in this thread I said if you start with a factory iron head and give it to a good shop (this might as well be you), you would have a set of heads that were done correctly the first time. Forget countless hours of porting on a flow bench to make a stock set of heads equal Eddys or stealths. Just a proper valve job with some pocket clean up (perhaps your "porting in a hurry" example above), springs set for the cam and send them out the door as a true ready to bolt on head. How bad can that be? I say about $1100.00. Now start with a set of $900.00 stealths that may need another $500.00 worth of work. Again, it all depends on the build. And I understand what you are saying about spend a bit more to get more, but if you can do with less why not?

I'm running high 12's with iron heads in a 4000 lb car. Sure I can go a lot faster but for this engine I'm good as is. In my case I'd be way ahead if I could take the aftermarket heads and bolt them on, but that as I understand it is rare to impossible.

Darn it. If I sounded like I was being argumentative I apologize. You are of course correct. For less money than a pair of RPM/Stealth heads you can have a very good set of rebuilt iron heads.

EVERY set of aftermarket aluminum heads I have ever inspected needed to be worked on. They have guide, valve seat, retainer/lock and sealing surface issues. Some valves even need to be replaced though they are brand new (most common on the Stealth heads). Funny thing is, they all generally have pretty good seat runout on the valves themselves, I end up tossing the valves because of damage to the stems caused by crappy locks during assembly.

 

[Meep-Meep]

Thanks for clarifying. My point was pretty much what you just stated (or were stating all along). The lure of the cheap aftermarket head expires at the point of getting the price quote to fix them properly. So anyone looking to buy a set of such heads should really be planning an engine that will use them to the full potential.

 

[DMR440]

The 452 head is much easier to port into the 280-290 cfm range, but for me they tend to quit at 305-310 cfm. Whereas the 906 takes more work to the 290 cfm range, but will reach a maximum of 330 cfm to almost 350 cfm in our tests. The 906 heads, used in a quick experiment on a 451 stroker with 9.7:1 compression went to 694 horsepower in our dyno tests. Using a set of ported RPM heads (the very same thing could be done with the Stealths) that took the compression to 11.7:1, but still on 91 octane, the horsepower went to 787. Conventional wisdom says the compression ratio alone would give about 55 horsepower increase. They had very similar intake flows but the exhaust flows on the ported RPM/Stealth heads are far superior to the 906. So perhaps the additional power increase came from better exhaust flows. Also the cam would have been better suited to the higher compression ratio.

Thanks for this post. That's an insane amount of compression with the RPM heads on 91. I wonder what you could achieve with 98 octane fuel that we have here in NZ!

Even the cast iron numbers you guys are getting, it really is rocket science stuff. Awesome

 

[Meep-Meep]

DMR, is your 98 octane fuel R+M/2 or a research number? Research numbers are higher. I.E. a 70 VW bug calls for 91 RON and I know that a 7.5:1 motor doesn't need our 91 pump gas! LOL 91 RON is about 87 in the US.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/..._or_not_stealth_fighter/stealth_cylinder.html

A good article showing how poorly the stealth heads performed vs. very mild factory 915 cylinder heads. 268cfm @ .600 lift; a far cry from their advertised flow rating. 10-15HP for $1,000 does not sound like an outstanding gain over very mild cast iron heads, but obviously for Mopar Muscle, it is ground breaking :toothy10:

Mopar Muscle flow ratings for BBM heads..
Kind of proves a point on 'you get what you pay for'...

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/..._big_block_cylinder_head_testing_flow_charts/

 

[Funship32]

Edelbrock are 100% American Made... I prefer to buy & support our American companies... Even if I have to pay a few buck more... But that's just me, I want the best product I can have & preferably all Made in the USA, when ever possible...

Ain't just you, brother. Earlier today I was looking at a set of Eddy E-Street heads just for the fact that they are made in the U.S. of A.

 

[Garys1969RR]

I believe the ported stealths are going to flow better than 915 or 906 heads with the same amount of work done to them.

- - - Updated - - -

So start with the best heads you have on hand, and make improvements from there, as IQ 52 has previously stated.

- - - Updated - - -

I home ported my 915s, large valves etc. I spent alot of time and research doing this, and came up with a decent set of heads. Enough to get my Roadrunner down to 12.58@109MPH. 451 engine, 5600 feet elevation.

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/..._or_not_stealth_fighter/stealth_cylinder.html

A good article showing how poorly the stealth heads performed vs. very mild factory 915 cylinder heads. 268cfm @ .600 lift; a far cry from their advertised flow rating. 10-15HP for $1,000 does not sound like an outstanding gain over very mild cast iron heads, but obviously for Mopar Muscle, it is ground breaking :toothy10:

Mopar Muscle flow ratings for BBM heads..
Kind of proves a point on 'you get what you pay for'...

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/..._big_block_cylinder_head_testing_flow_charts/

I'm confused here.... the article your reference says the stealth OTB and ported stealths kick considerable more *** than the 915's with work done on them and are well worth the money for what they are an economical way to upgrade your heads and gain horsepower and lose weight?

from Mopar Muscle article:

"We learned a lot from out test of 440 Source’s Stealth aluminum cylinder heads, and the results shown in the dyno sheets speak for themselves. Of course there are bigger, more exotic, and more expensive cylinder heads on the market for your big-block Mopar, but if you’re looking for a lightweight, economical upgrade to factory big-block cylinder heads we found 440 Source Stealth aluminum heads to be a great option. Look over our dyno sheets carefully, and we think you’ll agree that for the money, these heads are hard to beat."

and:

"On the dyno, the results showed exactly what the flow charts showed. By bolting on the “out of the box” Stealth heads and changing nothing else, our 440 street engine picked up power across the board, with peak horsepower climbing to 475 hp, and peak torque to 480 lb-ft. The average numbers of torque and horsepower were also up significantly, a clear indication that the $995 Stealth heads beat our factory 915 castings hands-down."

 

[DMR440]

DMR, is your 98 octane fuel R+M/2 or a research number? Research numbers are higher. I.E. a 70 VW bug calls for 91 RON and I know that a 7.5:1 motor doesn't need our 91 pump gas! LOL 91 RON is about 87 in the US.

I believe our fuel is 98 RON but I'll have to check on that for sure

 

[Sweet5ltr]

I'm confused here.... the article your reference says the stealth OTB and ported stealths kick considerable more *** than the 915's with work done on them and are well worth the money for what they are an economical way to upgrade your heads and gain horsepower and lose weight?

The car made 467HP with 915's with very mild work prior to the Stealth Head Upgrade. For $1,000 they made '8' additional HP. Was humored by the fact they were making it sound like a remarkable leap of power. Was also surprised you didn't catch my main issue with both articles, the OOTB flow #'s for the Stealths. First article, the stealths peaked out at 255/197 @ .500 and 268/207CFM @ .600. In the second article, 258/196 @ .500 and 244/206CFM @ .600.. Actually loosing flow after .500 lift. Edelbrock Cylinder heads OOTB via second article in cylinder head comparison, 272/210CFM @ .500 and 291/223CFM @ .600. You must be kidding yourself to even think their is any comparison in quality, as the #'s don't lie in un-biased flow ratings of OOTB heads. Go with eddy's and save yourself the lackluster OOTB performance.

All I can say for Mopar Muscle is... They must be using Mopar Economics to agree that 8 ponies are worth a grand! :icon_scratch:

 

[67Satty]

Somewhere in this thread I said if you start with a factory iron head and give it to a good shop (this might as well be you), you would have a set of heads that were done correctly the first time. Forget countless hours of porting on a flow bench to make a stock set of heads equal Eddys or stealths. Just a proper valve job with some pocket clean up (perhaps your "porting in a hurry" example above), springs set for the cam and send them out the door as a true ready to bolt on head. How bad can that be? I say about $1100.00. Now start with a set of $900.00 stealths that may need another $500.00 worth of work. Again, it all depends on the build. And I understand what you are saying about spend a bit more to get more, but if you can do with less why not?

I'm running high 12's with iron heads in a 4000 lb car. Sure I can go a lot faster but for this engine I'm good as is. In my case I'd be way ahead if I could take the aftermarket heads and bolt them on, but that as I understand it is rare to impossible.

I think I'm in about the same boat as you. I gave my 452s (that I somehow ended up with after many horse trades, so essentially free cores) to an old-timer machinist who is a perfectionist. I have about $786 total into them and they've been good enough to get a 3800 pounder to a 7.86 in the 1/8 at a track with 2000+ DA, so that would be anywhere from 12.30s to 12.50s in the quarter (depending on whose calculator you believe). So yeah, a street/strip toy, cruiser doesn't really need the aluminum heads unless you want to get into the 11s IMHO.

Here's a breakdown of how the unported, stock-sized valves 452s came to $786:

Parts:

Core 452s: Free (I just kind of ended up with them after years of horse-trading).
Springs matched to cam: $92
3/8" Chromoly Steel Retainers: $100
Exhaust valves: $40
Intake valves: $32
Valve shims: $10
Core plugs: $12

Parts total: $286

Labor:

Install valve guides: $45
Install valve seats: $40
Valve job: $185
Mill heads: $45

Machine valve guides for retainer clearance, machine valve spring seats for springs, set valve spring height, and assemble heads: $185

Labor total: $500

So $786 total into a stock valve job/rebuild of 452s done by an old-timer perfectionist machinist versus $1000 for OOTB Stealths ($1500 for OOTB RPMs) and winging it or $1600+ for sorted out Stealths or RPMs.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

67' Satty, I definitely agree with your post. It is just in all honesty, many people are short sighted on their performance goals. I can't tell you how many parts/cams I have swapped out in two years for a street car. Yes, aluminum heads are a big budget purchase initially.. But when, or if, the individual decides they want that next leap in the power department, they aren't out the $700-$1,000 additional dollars that they had spent on their Iron Heads before switching to aluminum. But if your plans are 100% street-stock, then, by all means keep the Irons.

 

[Garys1969RR]

Thanks for pointing that out, 5 ltr. 8 horse for 1000.00 comes to $125.00 per horse. That doesn't include expensive multi layer head gaskets, or special head bolts that may be needed. The CNC ported Stealths came to $1995.00, and made 65 more ponies than the mildly ported 915s. I will stay with my 915s for now. I can get steel shim gaskets for $25.00, and I get a slightly tighter quench with the .020 gasket compared to the .027" cometic.

 

[Budnicks]

Here's more good food for thought... you take the weight saving of the aluminum vs the iron heads 50-70#'s or more depending on what type of engine, Lets just say if they were exactly the same port configuration & flow cfm &/or combustion chamber design, straight plug heads etc., you still will have better performance, all just because of weight savings, better weight transfer, better handling too, less shock & tire wear, less load on the front suspension, bushing last longer, lower center of gravity etc., 99% of the time usually better cooling/heat dissipation with aluminum also, less under hood heat {in theory at-least all part that are effected by heat, that kill power or even the rubber parts, effected by under hood heat, like belts & hoses etc., will all last longer & make more power too}, sometime even better exhaust cooling or easier to work on at least @ a minmum, because of the lack of bolts going into the water jacket on the exhaust port rails, because of blind holes, less heat transfer into the intake that kills HP & saturates/heat soaks the carburetor too, most all this equates to better performance & less hassles... Especially if your talking about a performance vehicle of any kind, especially one that will see any track time, it's all about weight to power ratios... so there is far more going on here than just monetary levels of performance... it's allot more than just dollars spent in the overall pitcher.... have the exact same combo with aluminum vs cast iron, no other changes equally built, the weight saving alone, with the aluminum head car/combo with identical drivers will always win... Just thought I might throw some simple physics into the mix... have fun what ever you choose...