440 Vibration with Cast Crank

[Mike Mc]

Hello Gentleman, new to the board and this is my first post. This post is not reguarding a B model but I can't figure out whats going on so I'm hoping you guys can set me strait.

I traded a 1941 Caterpillar D2 for this 1968 D100 Sweptline with a '76 440 pick up engine with a cast crank.

Running about 1,500-2,000 rpm it has a vibration in the engine that smooths as it revs up. The vibration is real bad when de-accelarating, it shakes the cab and gives a funny feeling like driving with the back windows down in a car. I believe the vibration is getting worse.

The truck runs great! Lots of power and can't feel the vibration when under power only with light throttle and especially when slowing down.

It's now on jack stands and this magnifies the vibration even more with the tires not being on the ground.

Here is what I've done so far,
1. I gave the truck a complete tune up and it's hitting on all 8.
2. Did a compression check and all the cylinders were between 140-150 psi.
3. Vibrates with the clutch in or out.
4. The harmonic dampner slid back and was rubbing against the timing cover. So I found a new/used one on ebay that said "use on 440 with cast crank only" just like the one that came off. Thinking this new/used balancer/dampner would solve the problem but the vibration is the same.
5. Installed a new double roller timing chain and sprockets.
6. I removed the clutch cover and no weights or parts fell out. All the pressure plate bolts are tight and in place.

I'm stumped and don't know whats going on. Please advise!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXRmZazaISE&list=UUaD3qYflKm7V1L4gjmzmu6w&index=5&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL6PP7pyekY&feature=relmfu

Thanks, Mike

 

[70rr-brian]

Wrong flywheel?

 

[Meep-Meep]

Yeah, a steel crank flywheel on a cast crank would definitely cause a vibration. You need to add an offset weight, or remove weight at 180 degrees, or find the correct flywheel, which may be difficult because I think most late model 440's were autos. If you can get a hold of the cast crank torque converter with correct flex plate you can use that as a reference as to where to remove/add weight. What matters is the amount of weight at the correct angular location and at the same radius. I bet you can get pretty darn close with a good scale.

 

[43tutor]

Another area to look at might be the drive line itself. It could be the u-joints on the drive shaft are bad. Under full acceleration the u-joints will be loaded to "one side" and "play" in the bearings might not be detected. However, when de-accelerating the u-joints will become "un-loaded" and vibration can occur in the drive line. Check the drive shaft....

Try driving the truck in each gear 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc. at a constant RPM. Repeat this RPM in each gear. Does the vibration get worse the faster you go or slow down? If the vibration is constant with RPM it is probably motor related. However, if the vibration changes with speed it might be in the drive line.

 

[67 B-body]

Another area to look at might be the drive line itself. It could be the u-joints on the drive shaft are bad. Under full acceleration the u-joints will be loaded to "one side" and "play" in the bearings might not be detected. However, when de-accelerating the u-joints will become "un-loaded" and vibration can occur in the drive line. Check the drive shaft....

Try driving the truck in each gear 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc. at a constant RPM. Repeat this RPM in each gear. Does the vibration get worse the faster you go or slow down? If the vibration is constant with RPM it is probably motor related. However, if the vibration changes with speed it might be in the drive line.

Pretty sure he said it did it on stands and when the clutch pedal is depressed...

I would be looking at the flywheel too!

 

[Mike Mc]

Thanks for the replies.

This truck use to have a 383 with a forged crank and the engine went bad and he installed a 440 that came out of a motor home. So it probably had an automatic mated to it.

I pulled the dampner off the old 383 (no off set weights or cut outs) and put it on the 440 and it shook even worse.

Next we pulled the transmission and and clutch assemble and it it still vibrated the same. So I believe I've eliminated it to the fly wheel.

I see no marking like on the dampner/balancer about using only on a 440 with cast crank but the flywheel appears to be balanced (no off set weights or cut outs). If the fly wheel is like the dampner it should be weighted on one side to match the crank.

He gave me the automatic tranny that was in the motor home. Maybe I should switch it over to the auto but we like the engine braking with these old drum brakes.

Sound like I'm on the right track?

 

[Meep-Meep]

Yep. Again, if you duplicate the converter weights on that flywheel it will work. Here is the weight kit http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DCC-4120241 From my info I see drilling a 3/8" dia. x 5/16" deep hole in cast iron using the standard 118 deg drill tip will remove 4.8 grams of material.

 

[Supershafts]

WAIT!!! you said at 1500 to 2000 rpm and when decelerating i take that as moving.......

DOES this happen when the truck is NOT MOVING and in park or neutral ???????????

ON the stands it is magnified!! sounds like you're doing this is in gear at speed and the issue is in the shaft. . .


(he did say he pushed the clutch in, but with the driveline spinning or not....)


DETAIL help on line needs tons of detail

 

[HEMI-ITIS]

I have the same proplem with the Duster.Thinking maybe broken piston skirt or something.Car is an automatic.

 

[Revhendo]

Flywheel. It's the flywheel. It's the flywheel.
Speaking of which, what size flywheel is it? 130 tooth or 143 tooth? Just get the right flywheel and be on the road again.

 

[Cranky]

The motor home transmission is most likely different than what would normally come in the pickup. Most have a short tail shaft plus they have a bolt on yoke and not a slip yoke. Other than that, it would work. You could swap the tail shafts but by then, you could have your old flywheel fixed and going just as easy if not easier. And put some good brakes on that thing. You can still find better shoes that will make it stop a lot better than the cheapo ones do. My old 69 long bed did just fine with the drums and the top of the line shoes. That's one of the reasons so many hate drums....most of their experiences with them was with the low line cheap shoes that they usually end up with. The factory also used junk shoes back in the day so drum brakes got a bad name pretty early on.

 

[moparmarks]

Thats looks like the 172T wheel used on 67-older trucks and is for a forged crank. They were also used on later 440 cast crank industial motors. I have one from a 440cc powered water pump. I'll check out the balance on it.

 

[moparmarks]

Heres a 172T balanced for the cast crank 440.

 

[69Bee]

68 383 Internally balanced
76 440 Externally balanced

You have put the flywheel from the internal balanced motor on the externally balanced motor, and that will not work. When you put the 383 balancer on teh 440, you made it worse, because the 440 is externally balanced, and you had the balancer and flywheel from the internally balanced motor. Put the cast 440 externally balanced balancer back on, and put the auto back on which has the externally balanced torque converter. The only other option is to get an externally balanced flywheel, and you can keep the manual...

 

[Mike Mc]

Thanks guys for solving the mystery!

Cranky, yes your pretty sharp on these Mopar products. The motor home auto tranny has a bolt on yoke and my D200 auto has a slip on yoke.

The automatic flex plate will only bolt to the flywheel one way but it looks like the weighted torque converter will go on any way. Does it matter were the converter bolts up to the flex plate? I would think so.

Looking at the starter teeth on the converter it looks to have vey little wear on it. So hopefully I have a good tranny sitting on the pallet. I need to service it first though.

I'm thinking of pulling the engine since it's so close to coming out. This will be a great time for putting a new pan gasket on it and mating up the tranny correctly. Also a good opportuninty to paint the engine compartment. Another good thing is I have a automatic dash with the shifter already in it.

 

[69Bee]

The torque converter should only go on one way as one of the bolts is offset.

 

[Meep-Meep]

Heres a 172T balanced for the cast crank 440.

Well there you go! If I was the OP I'd be asking for a template of that hole size and location referenced from the offset bolt pattern. Also note if those holes are flat bottom or have the drill bit point. Good info right there!

 

[Mike Mc]

Yes good info!

The woman counted four times and says the 383 flywheel has 186 teeth. Using a template might not be the same on this 383 flywheel since the 440 only has 172 teeth.

 

[moparmarks]

Yes good info!

The woman counted four times and says the 383 flywheel has 186 teeth. Using a template might not be the same on this 383 flywheel since the 440 only has 172 teeth.

Might try couting them for yourself. Bets theres 172. Mopar never made a 186 wheel. I have that same 383 wheel and its a 172.

 

[Mike Mc]

We pulled the engine and found a few things that we're failing. The machanical oil pressure line was leaking and about to fail. Rear main bearing is very worn, just fell out of the cap. All the other bearing look decent and fit tightly in the bearing cap. Freeze plugs are rusting through. Looks like the head gasket was close to leaking. The RV cam is pitted with signs of wear.

The pistons don't look too bad, can still see some cross hatch marks in the cylinders.

Here is the casting on the block. Date 10-26-77 number 4006630-440-4.
Can you guys tell me the factory bore size and crank journals too? Can you tell what cam is in it?

Thanks, M-