.590 cam (install straight or advance?)

[Sweet5ltr]

Is it fine to install this camshaft straight up, dot-to-dot. Car will be street driven, and isn't a track car. More of a 'show and go' car. What type of performance difference could it make by advancing the camshaft 2-4*? Don't have much carburetor and don't want anything larger for the street so I am not trying to wind it to the moon; would be happy making peak power before 6,500RPM. Thank you. Got everything ready for the hyd. to solid conversion... Just getting the finishing details together to make it painless as possible.

 

[Meep-Meep]

Well, advancing 4 deg would close the intake valve sooner and that will be good for a cylinder pressure boost. Hard to say from here but this may be one of those things you will just have to test out. Start with it straight up and after some seat time change it and see if you like it better. Check valve to piston clearance in both positions. It may not make a difference but easy to do while you're in there.

 

[rumblefish360]

IOR , Ma MoPar Sez to install it 2*'s ad advanced. More advance, more torque and again, IIRC, less RPM. As in peak power sooner in the RPM band, beginning low end and top end power.

IMO, like said above, though I say Centerline the cam like MoPar Sez to do as per the instructions.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

I have read some people installing the camshaft straight up, and some advancing it up to 6*. Didn't know if it would make much of a difference on a street car. Once I get the camshaft in I will take the car to the dyno, and see what the power curve looks and see what they recommend. Carb is way too small, flowing in the mid 800's but I don't see it necessary to spend $700 on a new carb for a few more CFM on a street engine. Will probably install at end of month, only time I currently have off. Don't have a degree wheel, so I will install it straight up and if it doesn't run as well as I would like I will order a kit and 9 way adjustable timing chain and degree it.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Regardless of how you install it, use the degree wheel. There's no way of knowing where it is unless you do that. What are the rest of the specs on the engine? Static compression and such? Is it known, or just guestimated? If you blueprint the static compression ratio, you'll know exactly what you have there and can install the camshaft to better match the static compression number. Generally, you advance the camshaft. Most cam grinders grind 4* advance into the cam. THe reason is because people usually always choose a cam that's too big for their application and the extra 4* is to get back some cylinder pressure and regain some bottom end torque lost by overcamming. That 590 is a bigun. It should have a static compression ratio of 11:1 and up to be optimal......but it can run well on much lower static compression ratios, if you install it in the right place. I don't THINK Mopar has their cams ground with any advance in them, but I could be mistaken. I wouldn't be afraid to run one as much as 10* advanced, including whatever the cam is ground to. Because what you gain on the bottom side will not be equally lost up top. I use an old school trick with a compression gauge when degreeing. That tells me instantly what kind of changes I've made.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

Honestly, if it doesn't perform installing straight up then I will pay someone to degree the camshaft that I know locally. It is cheaper than me spending $100 on a kit to use one time. Don't really care much for power down low, only at WOT. If I wanted a stump puller I would have left the factory camshaft in its place. Short block has 11:1 compression ratio. In the Mopar performance manual, they have a 8.5:1 400 and continually gain ET by running every purple shaft from the .484 on up, including the 590' and that is with cast iron stage V cylinder heads that flow relatively poor in comparison to my Edelbrocks. Gained dramatically from the .509 in a build that even that camshaft would probably be considered "too" radical in. Look at the days of super stock with the wedge'; Factory 906 heads with .750 lift camshafts. Thank you for your input, and if I already had a degree wheel I would degree it but I personally do not have an endless bank account and I am not chasing after every hundredth of a second in ET.

 

[RustyRatRod]

If it's a true 11:1, it should be pretty close. Lemmie ask you this. What components are you using to drive the camshaft with? If you are not going to worry about a degree wheel......which it sounds like you'll be close, then I would suggest high quality timing components. Maybe Crane or Comp's higher end stuff. That's why you degree the cam. It helps assure the timing is where it's supposed to be due to improper machining tolerances in timing sets, and other components. If your compression is like you say....I think you'll be fine.

 

[Cranky]

My MAIN reason for using a degree wheel is to make sure things are right. Like mentioned above, machining tolerance is the issue. It doesn't happen often but when tolerances are off enough, bad things happen. I've seen key ways machined off and the dots placed wrong in relation to the key ways. Most cases just make your engine run like **** but worse case means you have a set of bent valves. My secondary reason for using a degree wheel is to fine tune the combination....I even use a degree wheel when building an engine with a stock cam.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Crankamous is dead nuts on. I consider a degree wheel as important as a torque wrench.

 

[ga66mopar]

My MAIN reason for using a degree wheel is to make sure things are right. Like mentioned above, machining tolerance is the issue. It doesn't happen often but when tolerances are off enough, bad things happen. I've seen key ways machined off and the dots placed wrong in relation to the key ways. Most cases just make your engine run like **** but worse case means you have a set of bent valves. My secondary reason for using a degree wheel is to fine tune the combination....I even use a degree wheel when building an engine with a stock cam.

Cranky is correct. The cam should always be degreed in. The last time I installed a cam dot dot is was 3 degrees retared and that was using comp cam stuff. I like installing a cam at least 2 degrees advanced because I like strong bottem end power. I would find someone that knew how to degree the cam in and get them to help you. You can print a degree wheel off of the internet if you have to.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

I may end up taking the car to get the cam degreed AFTER I get it on the Dyno and see what the power curve looks like. If it looks good, I am going to let it be. If it is performing poorly all over the board, I will toss the budget 3 bolt timing set and go with a high end unit from Comp Cams. I am not looking to spend $1,000 to put a solid lifter camshaft in the car and I am not chasing ET's. It's a hot rod and I am not totally concerned about low end torque, as much as I am concerned about top end power. I have a Corvette Z06 to daily drive, and this is mainly a car my father and I go to shows with every weekend. If it isn't going to kill performance by not advancing the camshaft-but tame it down and get more torque on low end then I would rather it be installed straight up regardless. Would have stuck with a hydraulic flat tappet camshaft if I wanted that.

 

[Cranky]

If it's a street car, why wouldn't you be worried about good low end power? Are you planning on running top end on public streets all the time? A performance cam will usually give you good performance all through the rpm band that it's designed for if it's installed correctly....the first time.

 

[Hemi Rebel]

I purchased a .590 lift cam from marsh performance at carlisle several years ago. Their advice to me was set it up 6 degrees retarded. Or more specifically, make sure my piston to valve clearance is ok, set it up 6 degrees retarded and it will whip the slobber out of my mouth on the top end. Obviously not recommended for the street. Just letting everyone know one engine builders advice.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

If it's a street car, why wouldn't you be worried about good low end power? Are you planning on running top end on public streets all the time? A performance cam will usually give you good performance all through the rpm band that it's designed for if it's installed correctly....the first time.

If the car already makes 350-400 ft/lbs of torque off idle and 500 ft/lbs by 3000 RPM, why would I need any more?

 

[rumblefish360]

If the car already makes 350-400 ft/lbs of torque off idle and 500 ft/lbs by 3000 RPM, why would I need any more?

LMAO, well, maybe .... Ha ha ha ha ha :headbang:

Hemi Rebel, thanks for the note of advice/instructions. 6*'s is a good bit.

 

[67 B-body]

I made a degree wheel for you guys to print out and throw away when your done....

That post should be a sticky!!

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showthread.php?t=31467

Just print it,,, stick it to a chunk of cardboard and have at it........

 

[67 B-body]

BTW, Mine is installed with the Advance offset bushing... 3 or 4 degrees advanced...

 

[RustyRatRod]

Maybe I'm stupid. But I don't understand why someone who would build an engine from scratch would NOT invest in a good cam degreeing kit, rather than printing out one on a hunk of paper stickin it on carboard and runnin the risk of getting it out of place. Just makes no sense to me....and I'm a broke *** mofo. But I scraped up the hun the get the Comp Cams degree kit. I already had one, but I wanted the Comp kit because my dial indicator had seen better days being from the 1940s. I mean, a degree kit is a tool. Tools are what separates us from the beasts.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

The short block was built by Carolina Machine Engines. My .509 camshaft was degree'd. The last camshaft already had 4* advance ground into it, so it was installed straight up. All my fords got the cam degree'd by a local ford cylinder head porter and engine builder. Everyone has their own personal opinion, I just feel if the car doesn't run well with the camshaft installed without a degree kit (by running the car on the Dyno) I will purchase a new timing chain and degree kit, and advance or retard the camshaft on his recommendations.

 

[RustyRatRod]

The short block was built by Carolina Machine Engines. My .509 camshaft was degree'd. The last camshaft already had 4* advance ground into it, so it was installed straight up. All my fords got the cam degree'd by a local ford cylinder head porter and engine builder. Everyone has their own personal opinion, I just feel if the car doesn't run well with the camshaft installed without a degree kit (by running the car on the Dyno) I will purchase a new timing chain and degree kit, and advance or retard the camshaft on his recommendations.

I think you're gonna find it'll run fine. You sound like me. You just wanna have some fun.