727 trans
- Thread starter Kingman
- Start date
multipleBs
Active Member
Hi Kingman:
Your trans decodes as a 1968 727 for a 383 high performance version, built at the Kokomo plant on April 1, 1968, it was the
58'th trans built that day. No VINs were used on the trans until 1969.
Your trans decodes as a 1968 727 for a 383 high performance version, built at the Kokomo plant on April 1, 1968, it was the
58'th trans built that day. No VINs were used on the trans until 1969.
Kingman
Well-Known Member
thanks, i appreciate the info, i have to install
thanks, i appreciate the info.i have to install a new valve body do you thank i should install a shift kit too?
multipleBs
Active Member
It would be a convenient time to do it since it's going to be apart anyway, so I would. The only two I've actually used are B&M and TCI. They both function well but I didn't like the fact with the TCI you had to drill the valve body itself. Besides having to clean aluminum shavings out of there it's pretty much irreversible unless you are willing to TIG weld aluminum and mill the surface to get it flat. I'm probably just nit picking, I don't know anyone who ever needed to undo a shift kit install. B&M gave you two separator plates to choose from which cost more but required no drilling of the valve body. That was a few years ago, those kits have both probably evolved since then so maybe this is no longer an issue. Just out of curiosity why does your valve body need replacement? I've never seen one that was actually worn out.
Kingman
Well-Known Member
multipleBs
Active Member
Wow, it's amazing what is sometimes found on these 45-50 year old machines. Some cobbled items are to be expected but it really
amazes me sometimes what people do. In my 68 Charger I found a stock water pump with half the blades cut off, I think he was
trying to decrease pump drag. Needless to say it didn't help the cooling. He would have been a lot smarter to put a fan clutch on it, it still had the stock for 68 solid fan drive. I knew before I bought it that the gears were not stock, 3.91 in place of 3.23, but he used a small pinion 741 center section instead of just swapping gears in the 742. It was in good condition but I didn't think the small pinion meant for a small block in an A body had any place in a B body with a big block. Since I was upgrading from the 383 to a 440 it wouldn't have been a good plan to run the 741 so it had to be upgraded also. Even a car that's overall a good purchase will have a few negative surprises. Previous owners on a tight budget will sometimes do something just to keep it running, leaving these little gifts for future owners to deal with. Many times it will go through several owners before the problems are detected and dealt with properly. To really enjoy these cars you have to look at fixing these issues as part of the overall experience and not get too hung up on the fact that you started with something less than perfect. In time you can always build it into a solid reliable machine that it was intended to be.
amazes me sometimes what people do. In my 68 Charger I found a stock water pump with half the blades cut off, I think he was
trying to decrease pump drag. Needless to say it didn't help the cooling. He would have been a lot smarter to put a fan clutch on it, it still had the stock for 68 solid fan drive. I knew before I bought it that the gears were not stock, 3.91 in place of 3.23, but he used a small pinion 741 center section instead of just swapping gears in the 742. It was in good condition but I didn't think the small pinion meant for a small block in an A body had any place in a B body with a big block. Since I was upgrading from the 383 to a 440 it wouldn't have been a good plan to run the 741 so it had to be upgraded also. Even a car that's overall a good purchase will have a few negative surprises. Previous owners on a tight budget will sometimes do something just to keep it running, leaving these little gifts for future owners to deal with. Many times it will go through several owners before the problems are detected and dealt with properly. To really enjoy these cars you have to look at fixing these issues as part of the overall experience and not get too hung up on the fact that you started with something less than perfect. In time you can always build it into a solid reliable machine that it was intended to be.
Kingman
Well-Known Member
My clutch fan was also broken, I found that out when I decided to change the water pump, my trunk pan had pin holes right above the gas tank so I'm changing the center section, had to buy the whole pan just to cut the center out
66Satellite47
Well-Known Member
If you are changing valve bodies, call John Cope, he does really good stuff. Otherwise a Turbo Action valve body is pretty darn good.
I am in the process of looking for a 727 for my BB 62 Fury. 361HP 30 over with a mild cam.
Going to Carlisle next month, can you tell me what #s on trans that I should be looking for?
Street only no racing.
multipleBs
Active Member
Kingman:
Your trunk pan situation is unfortunately completely normal on these cars. The majority of them need work in that area. I was lucky to only find surface rust there but I've yet to fix the real cause of this (leaks around rear window). That will be a project for this winter. I'll also be removing the vinyl roof which creates many issues in a wet climate. It never has to be out in bad weather so the problem hasn't gotten any worse but it's not much fun when an unexpected rain arrives and you're 200 miles from home knowing you're going to be draining your trunk after you get home.
Your trunk pan situation is unfortunately completely normal on these cars. The majority of them need work in that area. I was lucky to only find surface rust there but I've yet to fix the real cause of this (leaks around rear window). That will be a project for this winter. I'll also be removing the vinyl roof which creates many issues in a wet climate. It never has to be out in bad weather so the problem hasn't gotten any worse but it's not much fun when an unexpected rain arrives and you're 200 miles from home knowing you're going to be draining your trunk after you get home.
multipleBs
Active Member
Hi FU64RY:
If you really need a complete transmission rather than just rebuilding the existing unit I don't envy your position. The first year aluminum torqueflite has some of the least interchangeability and it was a low volume production year. My parts number listing only includes 66-74 but that isn't really going to be a problem since what you need is fairly unique. Since you have a pushbutton car it will need the case for the cable shifter from 62-65 (only a few 65's). I don't believe you have a parking lock on that one so I'm guessing you have the parking brake drum at the end of the tail housing. If not you're better off, as most of 63-65 cases should fit. If you do have the parking brake on the trans it will be difficult to find as 62 was the only year that did that on the aluminum case. I've heard some motor home trans did it also, but I do not know what years. Since you said it's a 361 with a mild tune and no racing, any 727 with the big block bell housing that meets the above requirements should work as 361 was the smallest big block that year and you'll have sufficient clutch capacity in any of the big block torqueflites. When walking the field to locate one of these you can reject anything that doesn't have the output flange on the back of the trans, most of the ones you'll find are later production with no flange as they use slip yokes. If you need the trans parking brake it will be obvious from 20 feet away whether it meets that requirement. If you're lucky enough to find what you want on a first inspection, don't assume it's for a big block, a lot of the taxis liked to use the big trans with the 318 and it won't bolt up to your 361. You can check the distance between the top two bellhousing bolts to id them. Small block 7 3/4 inches, big block 6 7/16 inches.
I don't want to sound too negative as these are good transmissions, but the early unit will restrict you in other ways too. They have a 19 spline input shafts and most after market torque converters are for the later production 24 spline inputs. Also the flex plates differ from later units. On the upside, you have a rear pump so you can actually push start these cars and it's less risky to the trans to tow it with the rear wheels on the ground, if that matters to you. One other item I would check is whether your shift cable goes into the case horizontally and has the adjuster wheel (this is the most common type). A few had a shift cable attached similar to the later rod shifted transmissions that enter from the top like the throttle rod. Also, if you do have a parking lock you need the dual cable case to operate it. Good luck with your search.
If you really need a complete transmission rather than just rebuilding the existing unit I don't envy your position. The first year aluminum torqueflite has some of the least interchangeability and it was a low volume production year. My parts number listing only includes 66-74 but that isn't really going to be a problem since what you need is fairly unique. Since you have a pushbutton car it will need the case for the cable shifter from 62-65 (only a few 65's). I don't believe you have a parking lock on that one so I'm guessing you have the parking brake drum at the end of the tail housing. If not you're better off, as most of 63-65 cases should fit. If you do have the parking brake on the trans it will be difficult to find as 62 was the only year that did that on the aluminum case. I've heard some motor home trans did it also, but I do not know what years. Since you said it's a 361 with a mild tune and no racing, any 727 with the big block bell housing that meets the above requirements should work as 361 was the smallest big block that year and you'll have sufficient clutch capacity in any of the big block torqueflites. When walking the field to locate one of these you can reject anything that doesn't have the output flange on the back of the trans, most of the ones you'll find are later production with no flange as they use slip yokes. If you need the trans parking brake it will be obvious from 20 feet away whether it meets that requirement. If you're lucky enough to find what you want on a first inspection, don't assume it's for a big block, a lot of the taxis liked to use the big trans with the 318 and it won't bolt up to your 361. You can check the distance between the top two bellhousing bolts to id them. Small block 7 3/4 inches, big block 6 7/16 inches.
I don't want to sound too negative as these are good transmissions, but the early unit will restrict you in other ways too. They have a 19 spline input shafts and most after market torque converters are for the later production 24 spline inputs. Also the flex plates differ from later units. On the upside, you have a rear pump so you can actually push start these cars and it's less risky to the trans to tow it with the rear wheels on the ground, if that matters to you. One other item I would check is whether your shift cable goes into the case horizontally and has the adjuster wheel (this is the most common type). A few had a shift cable attached similar to the later rod shifted transmissions that enter from the top like the throttle rod. Also, if you do have a parking lock you need the dual cable case to operate it. Good luck with your search.
Kingman
Well-Known Member
My car is an original AC car do you think I should try to stay stock or look for a after market unit
Kingman
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info
multipleBs
Active Member
Kingman:
You'll get many different opinions on this subject. How strict are you normally about keeping it totally stock? The original mopar compressor is extremely large, heavy and power consuming. There are a few aftermarket systems out there, but since you have an original AC car I'm assuming you'll be keeping the stock evaporator, condenser and the plumbing. If it's just a matter of changing the compressor you could always go with the Sanden compressor used in the 80s on mopar. It's a lot more compact and a lot lighter. As far as I know it only appeared on small blocks and I haven't actually done this conversion so I don't know about the availability of brackets for your big block. There are also manifold clearance issues. Do you run a stock manifold?
I did a quick search on the forums and most discussions are about who makes the most complete and easy to install kit. It seems most want brand new components for the whole system. If I had your situation I would be tempted to work with what is already there, but I'm NOT NORMAL when it comes to things like that. I see from your photo that it's missing a few lines and the compressor outlet is wide open. Depending on how long it's been like that and the average humidity it might need a lot of parts to
rebuild that compressor, it might even be seized if it's been a long time. I would try turning it over gently by hand to see if it's free and leak test the evaporator and condenser to see what is needed. If you need a lot and just want cool air and aren't too worried about originality then one of the kits might be the easier way to go. Like I said, I'm not normal about some things and wouldn't hesitate to solder a leaky evaporator or condenser, most would just scrap that stuff for new. Have you really assessed the state of those parts or it is early days, just starting to think about AC? I haven't really used any of the kits, but I've seen some that will make your firewall look totally non-stock. I think it's the Vintage Air system that tosses the blower motor from the firewall and runs all the lines through that large hole. Then they install an under dash blower, I think that system might be totally recirculated air not using the cowl vent air intake. Definitely not my cup of tea. I always try to fix what's there and run the system as originally designed. The V2 compressor has all of the issues mentioned but when it's working right the system has huge capacity, I would bet it cools better than most of the kits. I believe that many will disagree and go all new forgoing stock for practical. The kit's are usually designed to be installed by anyone with minimal tools who will then take the car to an AC shop to be charged. Since I have a manifold gauge set, vacuum pump, etc., I prefer to do it all.
You'll get many different opinions on this subject. How strict are you normally about keeping it totally stock? The original mopar compressor is extremely large, heavy and power consuming. There are a few aftermarket systems out there, but since you have an original AC car I'm assuming you'll be keeping the stock evaporator, condenser and the plumbing. If it's just a matter of changing the compressor you could always go with the Sanden compressor used in the 80s on mopar. It's a lot more compact and a lot lighter. As far as I know it only appeared on small blocks and I haven't actually done this conversion so I don't know about the availability of brackets for your big block. There are also manifold clearance issues. Do you run a stock manifold?
I did a quick search on the forums and most discussions are about who makes the most complete and easy to install kit. It seems most want brand new components for the whole system. If I had your situation I would be tempted to work with what is already there, but I'm NOT NORMAL when it comes to things like that. I see from your photo that it's missing a few lines and the compressor outlet is wide open. Depending on how long it's been like that and the average humidity it might need a lot of parts to
rebuild that compressor, it might even be seized if it's been a long time. I would try turning it over gently by hand to see if it's free and leak test the evaporator and condenser to see what is needed. If you need a lot and just want cool air and aren't too worried about originality then one of the kits might be the easier way to go. Like I said, I'm not normal about some things and wouldn't hesitate to solder a leaky evaporator or condenser, most would just scrap that stuff for new. Have you really assessed the state of those parts or it is early days, just starting to think about AC? I haven't really used any of the kits, but I've seen some that will make your firewall look totally non-stock. I think it's the Vintage Air system that tosses the blower motor from the firewall and runs all the lines through that large hole. Then they install an under dash blower, I think that system might be totally recirculated air not using the cowl vent air intake. Definitely not my cup of tea. I always try to fix what's there and run the system as originally designed. The V2 compressor has all of the issues mentioned but when it's working right the system has huge capacity, I would bet it cools better than most of the kits. I believe that many will disagree and go all new forgoing stock for practical. The kit's are usually designed to be installed by anyone with minimal tools who will then take the car to an AC shop to be charged. Since I have a manifold gauge set, vacuum pump, etc., I prefer to do it all.
Kingman
Well-Known Member
multipleBs
Active Member
If the trans is in neutral and you turn one wheel they should both turn the same way if you have limited slip, without limited slip you can put the trans in park and the other wheel should turn the opposite way. You mentioned there was a problem with the parking lock mechanism so maybe the trans wasn't locked and you don't have limited slip, so the other wheel didn't turn. If it was locked and you have a properly working limited slip you would need to be a gorilla to turn either wheel unless the unit is worn out and slipping badly.
Kingman
Well-Known Member
the trans is out of the car
multipleBs
Active Member
Oh! In that case, if you can lock yoke, maybe slip a pipe wrench around it resting against the floor, assuming the car isn't too high, and repeat your test, then it will simulate what I described. I exaggerated a little bit in the previous post about being needing to be gorilla. With the wheel and tire in place I have been able to move some with the yoke locked without the limited slip being total trash, but there was a lot of resistance, and it really shouldn't be easy. When the wheels are on the ground and being driven the slip rate decreases the higher the torque load but in a test like this the limited slip operates in it's most released state. A freshly rebuilt unit will give you a lot of drag, but most of the ones in long term use have quite a bit of slip unless the load is high. I gather at this point you're just trying to figure out if it has limited slip without pulling the center section out?
Kingman
Well-Known Member
Kingman
Well-Known Member
Similar threads
