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AFR ALL over the place

justavillain

Well-Known Member
Local time
1:19 PM
Joined
Jul 17, 2016
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Location
Grand Rapids, MI
So I have had a super regular AFR since I got my last tune all set up in my car. Until last night….I usually Only worry about it mostly when I am hot rodding around or making a pass with my car but I always keep an eye on it just like it‘s oil pressure because if you have it why not. So anyway.

last night I was driving my car home from a wedding (classic car restorer and who helped get my A12 on the road) and the AFR was reading FAT like dumping into the 10‘s at idle. It NEVER has done that it usually idled around 13.2-13.4. But when I put the pedal down it went back to the 12.2-12.4 that I normally get when I do a hard pull. So I wasn’t too worried as I was more rich than lean. car still runs fine, did a hard pull and it stayed in the 12‘s the whole time.

but then out of no where the car went super lean. At idle it flipped and went into the 14’s like around 14.2 14.4. I’d give it a little gas and it would lean to 14.7 and just give it a slight run down the road to like 55-60mph not hard on the throttle it would go to the 13’s not the 12’s this time but then I would lift hard like at the end of a run and it would lean out hard the AFR would go lean to read higher than it could - - - then back in to the 14’s and 13’s. And it did this for miles.

The car still ran fine. The fuel tank was full, good gas ( it had 3/4 of 110 from the last race of the season, then I topped it off with 93 from a super busy station because it was going to be a long run to the wedding and back)

background is we didn’t have time to really do it perfect and stabbed in the AFR only on the left bank I was going to do a left and right AFR so its about 4” back from the header collector on the left side so it’s only reading accurately the left bank. I want to change that there is other things in the works for the car also. The car is called the Fumblebee because every time it starts to run the way it should something goes wrong it doesn’t want to be on the road. This just might be it’s way of messing with me. just last month it kicked the alternator out of The motor. Info on the motor if needed is it’s a 72 block 440 30 over, 6 pack rods, JB Forged molly coated pistons, max wedge ported heads 84CC Cambers, with an M1 intake, Holley 900CFM carb, idk what jets are in it or the power valve, all mechanical no choke, but does have the choke horn, it has the dominator style annulars but idk much more about it. I can get the numbers off it tonight. The Cam is a Huges off the shelf not sure what the specs are I can get that off my build book too if needed. It’s a runner for sure. Nothing hot hot but she gives the modern cars a bit of a show.

so my question is to the powerful internet as I have never really AFR’d a car before, and I haven’t pulled the hood off yet and checked the banks to make sure I’m firing on all 8 cyl. I’ll do that tonight and report back. should I replace all my plugs and keep on? Replace my fuel filter? Replace the O2 sensor? Think it‘s a fluke and run it again and see what it does As the car is KNOWN to cause trouble? Now could it also have been the cool air messing with the car? It was about the mid 40’s last night wen I was driving it home, with a pretty decent humidity level. I have never had to mess around with tuning or running my car this late into the year (never had it running this long as it‘s the fumblebee)
 
An exhaust leak upstream of the O2 sensor will show lean as it's getting fresh air mixed w the exhaust.
 
It still seems to run just the same, it does not have a dead spot in the power, it doesn’t pop, back fire, hiss, stumble nothing, it just seems like the gauge is acting like it’s in the background of a star wars scene.

the only time it truly seems to be any different than dead on accurate is when my fuel tank gets to 1/4or lower it gets PIG fat and stays that way for some reason. Not sure why or how. I am using the stock fuel tank/sender but then running an older Holley red pump with hard lines from the frame tank to the engine bay

EDIT: for the exhaust leak would it show the super rich then go wacky lean too? I can check the header gasket and the flandge gasket(that very well could be bad, it has been on and off a few times this year)
 
What should it be at idle? I am ignorant, but just on this I think. This just off idle. Idle is 750.

52E89B46-64B9-4F6B-B768-6983A564A965.png
 
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What should it be at idle? I am ignorant, but just on this I think. This just off idle. Idle is 750.

View attachment 1366868

That is about where I usually sit at idle on start up. But then it went super fat then super lean it was weird. I get off work in a couple hours I’ll get the TIC out and see if all the cylinders are doing their jobs and then if I have a leak. And what I’m sitting at.

Leaded gas messes up O/2 sensors.
When it goes lean how does it run?
I missed the leaded gas part, this is my first time running 110 in it and that is leaded. I had maybe 1/2 of a tank of it so the 93 I just added only thinned it a little bit. Before I ran straight gas 104. I have hard seat heads so I don’t need to run lead. I was running the 110 because that is what the track had and I wanted to see if I could get it to run any different since I’ve not had an issue with knock but it never seemed to really run at its best on 93 and 104 it did better and it sure did run its best times on 110. And the car ran smoother on it so it likes the higher octane. My cousin who builds oval cars was a bit surprised when he saw the car run a few week back on the higher mix and he even noted that it seemed to like it. Not that the 104, was bad either but it was just smoother. Almost like it jetted right.

But I couldn’t think less than 1 full tank of leaded would mess it up that fast would it?
 
I would check the plugs and go from there.
I suspect your sensor may have **** itself.
As pointed out a exhaust leak will throw the readings off.
 
coolant temp is too cold. fuel is collecting in the intake and burning off...195 thermostat needed
 
coolant temp is too cold. fuel is collecting in the intake and burning off...195 thermostat needed
If referring to the pic, car was not fully warmed up. 180 Stat usually runs 190ish. I’m here to learn.
 
It wasn’t upstream but it was near the sensor can’t be having an open H pipe…I went to take it for a quick rip with the hood off to make sure I could see and hear everything and I think the last bolt fell out because I heard a not quite good noise so I turned around real quick and pulled into my side drive to the barn and looked under her and yup all 3 are missing from the ol H pipe….

42BD3944-347A-4FFD-9BD9-D9C2E42E354C.jpeg
 
My system you can do a calibration. Doing this can warn you the sensor is going bad.
I don't leave it on the car so I calibrate it for each use.
Yours should be a lot better or fixed after repairing that leak.
 
A large leak downstream, near the sensor, within 2 feet, can have very adverse effects on readings at idle/very low rpm. Reversion can suck fresh air back in, giving bad readings.
 
That is about where I usually sit at idle on start up. But then it went super fat then super lean it was weird. I get off work in a couple hours I’ll get the TIC out and see if all the cylinders are doing their jobs and then if I have a leak. And what I’m sitting at.


I missed the leaded gas part, this is my first time running 110 in it and that is leaded. I had maybe 1/2 of a tank of it so the 93 I just added only thinned it a little bit. Before I ran straight gas 104. I have hard seat heads so I don’t need to run lead. I was running the 110 because that is what the track had and I wanted to see if I could get it to run any different since I’ve not had an issue with knock but it never seemed to really run at its best on 93 and 104 it did better and it sure did run its best times on 110. And the car ran smoother on it so it likes the higher octane. My cousin who builds oval cars was a bit surprised when he saw the car run a few week back on the higher mix and he even noted that it seemed to like it. Not that the 104, was bad either but it was just smoother. Almost like it jetted right.

But I couldn’t think less than 1 full tank of leaded would mess it up that fast would it?
Can you do a free air calibration? I don't know how fast the lead will kill the O/2 sensor.
 
Can you do a free air calibration? I don't know how fast the lead will kill the O/2 sensor.
not sure, good idea. I can try and look up the manual, it is the AEM Classic Wide Band o2 sensor that you weld in and have the gauge in the cluster. I did see that a ziptie failed too and there may be some heat damage too. So the whole system may be Damaged. where the o2 sensor plug meets with the AFE wire is melted a bit and I am unsure if I can get it unplugged or not. I added a stainless steel ziptie for the wire to keep it out of the way but there is not a ton of room in the trans tunnel with the large headers coming off the 440. I have 1-1/2 primaries going to a 4” collector off max wedge heads so there is a lot of weird angles of attack.

If in the winter I need to splice in a new connector and add a bunch of heat shield I will. Sadly this is again the curse of the car, and well race car stuff I guess. I wanted to run the AFR gauge as I wanted to protect the engine and make tuning easier and it has helped a bit but now makes it so you are always guessing.
 
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A large leak downstream, near the sensor, within 2 feet, can have very adverse effects on readings at idle/very low rpm. Reversion can suck fresh air back in, giving bad readings.

The H pipe in a straight line is about 1.5 foot in a curve is about 2ft. I was able to get a new gasket for it, but was not able to start it up and run it down the road. I ran out of time yesterday. I had a lot of little things come up when I was running around Yesterday…

side note. When your brother runs a tire bead on the tractor off and it’s full of Cal Chloride it’s a heck of a mess…and at least when you run into town to get some parts and drop the tire off to get refilled you can grab a new gasket.

So at 1130 last night I threw it back on but the battery was flat because my lights stayed on like a fool….so tonight or tomorrow I will at least start it up.
 
Well the o2 sensor is fouled. I also talked to AEM to verify some information about it and they said that the 110/leaded will foul any o2 sensor very quickly and that they said it’s a tune and pull the sensor.

So it’s hooped. But my plug is melted so that will take some work to get undone and well that is what good ol Michigan winter is for!
 
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