Brighter Headlights

[72RoadrunnerGTX]

Sorry,
This ^^^ is nonsense. Using your logic, when the starter is engaged, the bulkhead connections would burn out because of the several hundred amps that the starter draws. Because the starter is also connected to the bat + ve terminal. It would also mean according to the above 'logic', that the huge current draw from the starter cranking would snap off the ammeter needle as it slams the -ve peg!!
I have my own car wired as in post #35, as well as several others, with zero problems.

What are you talking about? The starter motor is the only factory load directly connected to the battery, not part of the charging system. This has nothing to do with the starter motor. All other original factory loads are on the alternator side of the ammeter (splice 1 in the dash harness) as should be any added aftermarket loads with an intact factory charging system. There should only be battery charging/discharging current flowing through the ammeter and related connections. Any added loads placed on the battery side of the ammeter will draw it’s current from the alternator through the ammeter while in operation, placing the entire charging circuit (wiring, bulkhead connectors, and ammeter) well outside of its original design limits. Ammeter will also register any added current load at the battery as false charging current. Logic? It’s fact.

Funny, you mention voltage drop, the relays by-passing voltage-drop in the original lighting circuit for the lamps, good thing. However, connecting the relay secondary power supply at the battery just shifts any voltage drop concerns away from the lighting circuit and over to the charge circuit as the alternator is providing power to the relays, not the battery, while running. Every bulkhead connection, ammeter and its connections between the alternator and the battery are now contributing to a voltage drop while engine is running.

Once more, this only applies to un-modified stock Chrysler charging systems of this era that includes a functional ammeter as originally equipped.

 

[Geoff 2]

Sorry, 72 RR, you are not 'getting' it....
I suggest you re-read what you said in post #36: 'The H/light current will also register as false charging current'. 'Register' where? I took that to mean on the ammeter gauge. And it would not be charging current, it would be dis-charging current because you are drawing current from the battery.
Hence my introduction of the starter. The starter motor is connected directly to the bat + terminal....along with the h/light cct. The electrical system does not know the difference, all it sees are current drawing loads connected to THAT batt + terminal. So using your logic, the several hundred amps of starter motor current is going to go through the ammeter.....& it ain't gona like it...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the connection method I described. By all means connect to the alt stud if you wish. But that usually means more wire length [ & more voltage drop ] because on most cars the battery is behind the h/lights & only requires short runs of wire..

And, oh, you better contact MSD & the makers of CD ign boxes & tell them their wiring is wrong because they ALL recommend direct connection to the bat + ve terminal...

 

[Some Car Guy]

I saw quite a drop in load on the ammeter when I put led tail light bulbs in. Yokam brand on Amazon. Easiest upgrade I’ve done to a car.

 

[72RoadrunnerGTX]

Sorry, 72 RR, you are not 'getting' it....
I suggest you re-read what you said in post #36: 'The H/light current will also register as false charging current'. 'Register' where? I took that to mean on the ammeter gauge. And it would not be charging current, it would be dis-charging current because you are drawing current from the battery.
Hence my introduction of the starter. The starter motor is connected directly to the bat + terminal....along with the h/light cct. The electrical system does not know the difference, all it sees are current drawing loads connected to THAT batt + terminal. So using your logic, the several hundred amps of starter motor current is going to go through the ammeter.....& it ain't gona like it...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the connection method I described. By all means connect to the alt stud if you wish. But that usually means more wire length [ & more voltage drop ] because on most cars the battery is behind the h/lights & only requires short runs of wire..

And, oh, you better contact MSD & the makers of CD ign boxes & tell them their wiring is wrong because they ALL recommend direct connection to the bat + ve terminal...

I’m not getting it? Up against a brick wall here it would appear. As a Chrysler dealer trained line tech with over 45 years’ experience in the trade, I'm not the one not getting it, I stand by what I posted as factual. The alternator is the main power source while the engine is running period, not the battery. The ammeters’ purpose is showing charging or discharging current only. Therefore, to be accurate there can be no loads added on the battery side of the ammeter. Any loads added to the battery will register on the ammeter as charging current when in fact it is not charging current (false charging current). Your lamps connected directly to the battery will never, like the starter, show a discharge. I suggest you do a little more reading up on how the original Chrysler charging system functions.

As for all these aftermarket manufactures “recommending” direct battery connections. There are some good reasons they “recommend” direct battery connections. Number one reason, the average installers, professional or otherwise, can’t be trusted to identify a good clean proper power connection point other than at the battery. And for 99.9% of all applications on the road today, no issues, but they’re not running battery ammeters these days, are they? Guess what, none of my MSDs, or any other aftermarket loads for that matter, installed in my old Mopars are connected directly to the battery, all on the alternator side of the ammeter only.

Good luck, done with this thread.

 

[Nacho-RT74]

Sorry, 72 RR, you are not 'getting' it....
I suggest you re-read what you said in post #36: 'The H/light current will also register as false charging current'. 'Register' where? I took that to mean on the ammeter gauge. And it would not be charging current, it would be dis-charging current because you are drawing current from the battery.
Hence my introduction of the starter. The starter motor is connected directly to the bat + terminal....along with the h/light cct. The electrical system does not know the difference, all it sees are current drawing loads connected to THAT batt + terminal. So using your logic, the several hundred amps of starter motor current is going to go through the ammeter.....& it ain't gona like it...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the connection method I described. By all means connect to the alt stud if you wish. But that usually means more wire length [ & more voltage drop ] because on most cars the battery is behind the h/lights & only requires short runs of wire..

And, oh, you better contact MSD & the makers of CD ign boxes & tell them their wiring is wrong because they ALL recommend direct connection to the bat + ve terminal...

yes, any device conected to the batt will be read by the ammeter WITH ENGINE RUNNING as a discharge reading, because the load from alt will be going throught all the charging system included ammeter to feed any device on that side like a discharged batt. This is an unnecesary stress on the stock design and is one of the huge mistakes made since ever. Then everybody blame to ammeters to aome failures.

without engine running will be no reading at all. But like when you start the engine, as soon you crank up and fires up, the alt begins to work and sources back the batt to recharge the batt what lost on crank up moment or any other device which was working… then gets Charge reading. Same happens when you sources anything from batt.

 

[Nacho-RT74]

yes, any device conected to the batt will be read by the ammeter WITH ENGINE RUNNING as a discharge reading, because the load from alt will be going throught all the charging system included ammeter to feed any device on that side like a discharged batt. This is an unnecesary stress on the stock design and is one of the huge mistakes made since ever. Then everybody blame to ammeters to aome failures.

without engine running will be no reading at all. But like when you start the engine, as soon you crank up and fires up, the alt begins to work and sources back the batt to recharge the batt what lost on crank up moment or any other device which was working… then gets Charge reading. Same happens when you sources anything from batt.

sorry, correcting myself… bolded my correction: as a CHARGE reading ( I was barely waking up and posting from bed LOL ). This would be an unreal reading because the load read by the amm won’t be really charging the batt (at least not 100%) but also feeding accesories

the Charge reading ammount will depend on the alt capacity and alt rpms. Being the stock alts with a short charge capacity at iddle, when you rev up the charge reading will shown bigger while at iddle could show a flickering/intermitent charge reading with accs on batt side.

if you connect to the alt side, with a poor stock alt capacity you could get a small ammount (or flickering) of discharge reading, but when you rev up, just the load destined to recharge the batt will be running throught the ammeter and the rest will stay on alt side to feed the added accs. But not the load to the batt PLUS the load to the accs added to the batt.

of course is MANDATORY for a healthy charging system and balance upgrade the alt to the accesories added accordingly. This, along with CORRECTLY feed the added accesories on the amm-alt side of the charging network will keep the ZERO READING (or closer as posible to that ) on ammeter as Factory recomends and the ammeter just reading WHAT JUST THE BATT plays into the game, which is its goal.

 

[Geoff 2]

72RR,
Apparently you did no re-read...or did not understand.....post #36, your own post.
When the lamps [ or any other device ] are connected to the bat +ve post as a dedicated & separate wire, they will not register on the ammeter. The ammeter is on a separate cct connected by a different wire......which also connects to the starter relay....& this wire continues on to the bat + ve terminal. The ammeter cct is a separate cct to any devices also connected to the bat +ve terminal & therefore current drawn by these devices [ starter motor & h/lights in this example ] will not register on the ammeter.

I well know the Chrys electrical system, how it works, & have known for over 50 yrs.

 

[72RoadrunnerGTX]

The ammeter cct is a separate cct to any devices also connected to the bat +ve terminal & therefore current drawn by these devices [ starter motor & h/lights in this example ] will not register on the ammeter.

I well know the Chrys electrical system, how it works, & have known for over 50 yrs.

One more try, and at the risk of repeating myself, this statement is accurate only when the engine or charging system is NOT in operation, vehicle at rest. Indeed, loads connected directly to the battery will not pull current through the ammeter when the engine is off. Engine running, all added loads connected at the battery will pull current through the ammeter and all related wiring and connectors from the alternator.

The alternator becomes the main power source for all vehicle loads as soon as the engine starts, and the alternator is becomes active, up to the output capacity of the alternator. All factory loads (other than the starter) are placed on the alternator side of the ammeter at splice 1 and the current they draw does not flow through the ammeter, will not register, while the engine is running. Assuming a fully charged battery and a heathy original charging system. Engine off, or after the alternator output capacity is excided while running, these factory loads should then show as discharge.

Again, while in operation, any loads placed at the battery draws it’s current from the alternator not the battery through the ammeter, ammeter connections, bulkhead terminals, fusible link, and related connections and registers as charging current. Correctly loaded, fully charged battery, there should be little to no current flow through the ammeter while in operation, needle centered.

Incorrect loading is the primary cause of bulkhead terminal and ammeter insulators/connection failures for these old Mopar charging systems, always has been. The ammeter is designed to show battery charging/discharging current only.

If you know the original Chrysler charging system that well you wouldn’t be connecting loads, or advising others to connect loads, at the battery with an unmodified original charging system running an ammeter.

A bit off topic now for this thread, suggest looking up some previous “ammeter” threads here for further charging system/ammeter “debates”.

 

[Geoff 2]

72RR,
All I can say is that you are lacking in electrical theory. The people agreeing with you are also showing the same lack of understanding. It is very simple: the ammeter will only register a reading [ charging or discharging ] when the device is connected to the SAME cct as the ammeter. When something is connected direct to the bat + ve terminal, it becomes another separate, independent cct. Like the large starter cable; notice the ammeter doesn't peg the ammeter gauge when the starter is operating?!??

 

[72RoadrunnerGTX]

72RR,
All I can say is that you are lacking in electrical theory. The people agreeing with you are also showing the same lack of understanding. It is very simple: the ammeter will only register a reading [ charging or discharging ] when the device is connected to the SAME cct as the ammeter. When something is connected direct to the bat + ve terminal, it becomes another separate, independent cct. Like the large starter cable; notice the ammeter doesn't peg the ammeter gauge when the starter is operating?!??

Well for F*** sake, there is definitely a lack of understanding going on here. Re-read the first two sentences of post 48. This has nothing to do with the starter motor draw. The battery is the only voltage potential device while cranking. So, you disagree, or just don’t understand, that the main voltage potential role shifts from the battery to the alternator once sufficient alternator rpm is reached and the ignition switch allows (after crank position release) ignition1 current to flow to the regulator and some field current is established?

Before you dig this hole any deeper, how about you go start up you old Mopar, with its charging system intact as original, turn on your battery connected added lights, tell me your ammeter doesn’t show abnormal charging current directly equating to the lamp load or whatever else you may have connected to the battery side of the ammeter while running?

 

[Nacho-RT74]

Interesting… same information gets a red x or a like depending on poster LOL

 

[RJRENTON]

Well for F*** stake, there is definitely a lack of understanding going on here. Re-read the first two sentences of post 48. This has nothing to do with the starter motor draw. The battery is the only voltage potential device while cranking. So, you disagree, or just don’t understand, that the main voltage potential role shifts from the battery to the alternator once sufficient alternator rpm is reached and the ignition switch allows (after crank position release) ignition1 current to flow to the regulator and some field current is established?

Before you dig this hole any deeper, how about you go start up you old Mopar, with its charging system intact as original, turn on your battery connected added lights, tell me your ammeter doesn’t show abnormal charging current directly equating to the lamp load or whatever else you may have connected to the battery side of the ammeter while running?

It appears that there are two (2) self proclaimed "experts" regarding Mopars and just about every other automobile system and subsystem......the first person is the subject of your comments and the other person is N*****74 R/T, who knows everything about nothing or nothing about everything ......such an awesome responsibility: knowing everything......btw, I support your argument......
BOB RENTON

 

[Cranky]

Can we all please play nicely....or at least tolerate each other??

 

[RJRENTON]

Can we all please play nicely....or at least tolerate each other??

When a person tries to explain a subject inaccurately thru incomplete or faulty logic, personal ethics almost requires a comment....not to belittle the person, but to explain the shortcomings of his/her premise, and to provide insight or at least factual information. Just my opinion of course......other's may or not care about inaccuracies.....
BOB RENTON

 

[dadsbee]

Self proclaimed.. Pot.. Kettle. Lose the damn pinky ring Bob and get off your ******* horse!

 

[Joeychgo]

Everyone take a breath please

 

[RJRENTON]

Self proclaimed.. Pot.. Kettle. Lose the damn pinky ring Bob and get off your ******* horse!

Thanx for the unbiased review...
BOB RENTON

 

[Cranky]

Thee end......