Cam degreeing "how much is too much"

[747mopar]

I don't know what it is with this motor but it just refuses to make anything easy. I got my new cam and lifters, I just got done degreeing it over and over. It's supposed to be installed on a 106 intake centerline but is 109 "checked it twice". Tried the -4 key and it got way worse "can't remember" about 117 I think. Anyways, I've never had to correct one but if going -4 moved it that much I don't see how I'll be able to fix it with the different keys or is that close enough? Sorry, they've always been right on so now I have something new to learn.

 

[Meep-Meep]

Make sure your dial indicator is rigidly mounted so you have repeatability. And while you are at it, check the repeatability. Roll the engine over a few times and see if you land at the same place on the degree wheel and indicator reading. If all is well then try the other key slot or another chain set. I usually see things within 2 degrees and that's not enough of an error to worry about.

 

[Kern Dog]

There are some things I really love doing on these cars, but so far I am not enjoying the "degree the cam" crap. I don't want to appear ignorant, but I would have rather had a buddy do it while I watched. I enjoy brake and suspension work. I've assembled many engines and enjoyed it. Maybe if the engine was out and on a stand I'd be having an easier time and not be so bent out of shape about the whole thing.
I am in it this far though. I bought the degree kit ($100) and the crank hub ($30) so i have to follow through.

 

[451Mopar]

Make sure your measuring the second lifter hole from the front, the first one is the exhaust lobe.

 

[62 Dart Convertible]

Are they offset crank gear keys you have? What sizes do you have? Sounds like you offset it the wrong way as it retarded the centreline worse.

Like Meep said, repeatability is essential, you have to have confidence you are accurate to 1 degree everytime. I did 5 readings and each time I came up with the same result, so I knew the reading was trustworthy.

 

[lewtot184]

some of those "extra" keyways on the crank gear are actually 8 degrees at the cam. if your using a comp cams camshaft i'm surprised it's off that far. the only thing i've found good about comp cams is accuracy. the simple solution is drill the dowel pin hole in the cam gear and install a 1 or 2 degree bushing, depending on if you want 105 or 107 centerline. one degree off on centerline means nothing.

 

[747mopar]

Make sure your dial indicator is rigidly mounted so you have repeatability. And while you are at it, check the repeatability. Roll the engine over a few times and see if you land at the same place on the degree wheel and indicator reading. If all is well then try the other key slot or another chain set. I usually see things within 2 degrees and that's not enough of an error to worry about.

Yeap, mounted to a piece of steel bolted down with the valve cover bolt, tried it a couple times and got the same reading. Indicator is parallel with the valve.

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There are some things I really love doing on these cars, but so far I am not enjoying the "degree the cam" crap. I don't want to appear ignorant, but I would have rather had a buddy do it while I watched. I enjoy brake and suspension work. I've assembled many engines and enjoyed it. Maybe if the engine was out and on a stand I'd be having an easier time and not be so bent out of shape about the whole thing.
I am in it this far though. I bought the degree kit ($100) and the crank hub ($30) so i have to follow through.

Agree, nothing slows down progress like degreeing a cam but it's a good practice to do.

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Are they offset crank gear keys you have? What sizes do you have? Sounds like you offset it the wrong way as it retarded the centreline worse.

Like Meep said, repeatability is essential, you have to have confidence you are accurate to 1 degree everytime. I did 5 readings and each time I came up with the same result, so I knew the reading was trustworthy.

I figured that I went the wrong way but since it moved it as far is it did, trying the other one (+4) will likely move it to far the other way.

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some of those "extra" keyways on the crank gear are actually 8 degrees at the cam. if your using a comp cams camshaft i'm surprised it's off that far. the only thing i've found good about comp cams is accuracy. the simple solution is drill the dowel pin hole in the cam gear and install a 1 or 2 degree bushing, depending on if you want 105 or 107 centerline. one degree off on centerline means nothing.

That would seem to be the case, I was expecting 4 but it moved 8.

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Just to make it clear, I have the timing set that has three keys in the crank, O, +4, -4.

 

[Cranky]

When I build an engine, #1 piston assembly goes in and I check the cam then install another piston like #8 and check it again. Things turn real easy when the block isn't loaded up. Once everything is together, I do another check. Also, I'd rather be a bit advanced than a bit retarded for most street/strip engines. Custom grinds for high rpm engines go together with whatever the grinder suggests for the combo...

 

[lewtot184]

if you ended up with one of those short duration comp cams solids i don't think i'd worry about the cam in at 109CL. some of those cam grinders put too much advance in their short duration cams. another thought, you may not have TDC accurately located, especially if the head is still on the block.

 

[747mopar]

if you ended up with one of those short duration comp cams solids i don't think i'd worry about the cam in at 109CL. some of those cam grinders put too much advance in their short duration cams. another thought, you may not have TDC accurately located, especially if the head is still on the block.

Using a piston stop, I bump it against the stop twice in each direction to be sure then split the difference, it comes out in the same place everytime (same as harmonic balancer).

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When I build an engine, #1 piston assembly goes in and I check the cam then install another piston like #8 and check it again. Things turn real easy when the block isn't loaded up. Once everything is together, I do another check. Also, I'd rather be a bit advanced than a bit retarded for most street/strip engines. Custom grinds for high rpm engines go together with whatever the grinder suggests for the combo...

It would be great to do this before it's all together but this is the result of two sets of bad lifters and now having to replace the cam for fear of damaging it with a third set. I'm behond frustrated at this point "I shouldn't even be doing this" I should be enjoying the motor not doing something that was already done.

 

[747mopar]

I'm buttoning it up, there was one thing that I had doubts about, the wire (pointer) was as thick as a whole degree on the wheel making exact readings difficult plus the fact your trying to look threw a grill. I made some changes to the pointer making it allot easier to tell exactly where it is pointing and did it again "108". It's only a 1 degree difference but I feel better being 2 off instead of 3. I really hate doing these things with a motor in the car, hopefully it will stay in for a long time. Thanks guys

 

[lewtot184]

it'll be fine.

 

[747mopar]

To answer your question, I went with the 21-230-4 XE268S-10 (501" lift) good match for my motor and desired rpm range. Should have it fired up tonight.

 

[Budnicks]

:iamwithstupid: I hope you got your lifter issues, finally solved... Good luck, you need to be able to enjoy it soon !!

 

[383man]

I was going to say you need to advance the cam as its easy to go the wrong way. I have seen some offset cam bushings marked in cam degrees which means they read twice as much at the crank since the cam turns 1/2 the speed of the crank. Many of the ones I have used were like that. Good luck with it , Ron

 

[Meep-Meep]

As far as I know the standard for degreeing cams is positioning the indicator right off the lifter and not the valve spring retainer. If you are doing this off the valve then move to the lifter and see if this helps. It's quite possible by the time you work through all the slop and flex in the rocker gear the crank moved farther along giving you a later valve opening spec. In reality this is probably more accurate but not how it's measured.

 

[747mopar]

As far as I know the standard for degreeing cams is positioning the indicator right off the lifter and not the valve spring retainer. If you are doing this off the valve then move to the lifter and see if this helps. It's quite possible by the time you work through all the slop and flex in the rocker gear the crank moved farther along giving you a later valve opening spec. In reality this is probably more accurate but not how it's measured.

Thanks, I've been trying to follow they're instructions which says "valve retainer" but I see what your saying.