E Mopars.

[Photon440]

I'm sorry, I quit reading when I read 'climate change'. Ever notice all the high and low temp records were set over 100 years ago? And when I was in college, these same people were predicting another ice age because temps were decreasing each year. So how can we be getting warmer? Did the method for calculating averages change? And have you noticed it's not global warming any more, it's 'climate change'? Lol.

Perhaps if you had chosen to continue to read the rest of the article to analyze the actual figures, you'd know how it addressed your concerns from post #55 above.

Additionally, instead of making up sentences such as "batteries are hazardous and no one knows how our country will handle disposing of all the bad ones..." you might research how many companies are already involved in re-use and recycling these batteries. Perhaps you could accurately state that you don't know how to handle disposing of them, but obviously people who make money from recycling them do have some idea. You must realize what a rich source of lithium, not to mention aluminum and steel each battery possesses, much more concentrated than the ore from which they were originally processed. It would be foolish to consider just throwing them away, when used batteries can fetch $200/kWh on the used market by hobbyist for alternative uses. Even when totally failed, these batteries are getting over $2/pound in scrap value from those who know how to make use of the components.

Your comment that coal stations are as clean as natural gas is not entirely inaccurate; the Isogo thermal power station near Yokohama, Japan is probably the world's cleanest, and it manages to match natural gas plants for emissions, but is the exception. Besides some examples in Germany and Denmark, most coal plants still produce far more pollutants. The cleanest American coal plant - Petra Nova in Texas - only lasted a few years, costing too much to be viable.

 

[Cojohnso1]

I'm sorry, I quit reading when I read 'climate change'. Ever notice all the high and low temp records were set over 100 years ago? And when I was in college, these same people were predicting another ice age because temps were decreasing each year. So how can we be getting warmer? Did the method for calculating averages change? And have you noticed it's not global warming any more, it's 'climate change'? Lol.

Ignorance to the facts and science is no longer an excuse. The evidence is overwhelming. Fear of the facts and that future is also not an option.

I'm perplexed why so many fear the future? Of course it's not our past. It never is! Once upon a time we lit out street lamps with whale oil. Nobody suggests we go back to that. Once upon a time the people screamed that horseless carriages were the work of the devil. We moved on from that nonsense. The simple truth is that internal combustion engines have been obsolete for decades. This is truth. And in the distant truth. Electric cars will be obsolete to a future energy drive systems.

We of the United States either lead in technology gains and advancements? We we relinquish global leadership. What future to do all foresee?

 

[Kern Dog]

Go join an electric car forum then. You won't find anyone crying at your departure here or at FABO.

 

[Photon440]

Ignorance to the facts and science is no longer an excuse. The evidence is overwhelming. Fear of the facts and that future is also not an option.

I'm perplexed why so many fear the future? Of course it's not our past. It never is! Once upon a time we lit out street lamps with whale oil. Nobody suggests we go back to that. Once upon a time the people screamed that horseless carriages were the work of the devil. We moved on from that nonsense. The simple truth is that internal combustion engines have been obsolete for decades. This is truth. And in the distant truth. Electric cars will be obsolete to a future energy drive systems.

We of the United States either lead in technology gains and advancements? We we relinquish global leadership. What future to do all foresee?

Although I can agree that change is inevitable, I have to ask why you say that internal combustion engines "have been obsolete for decades"? The truth, in actuality, is that they do the job that is required of them, and usually manage with good reliability, all the while giving a fair return on initial cost vs. other forms of propulsion.

 

[mpgmike]

Electric cars are nothing new, for sure!

 

[DeltaV]

Not everything is coming up roses

https://carbuzz.com/news/major-american-carmaker-isnt-hopeful-about-the-ev-revolution

 

[68-500]

Is not our country pretty much at max capacity producing electrical power? Where will we be when there are millions of EC plugged in every night charging????

Were are close to max generation output. But what they’re not talking about is the cleanest form of generation being silently and economically killed off nuclear plants have been closing all over the country. Check it out guys.

 

[68-500]

You are wrong. The amount of CO produced from a power plant to charge an electric car is significantly less then the CO produced by running the car from an internal combustion engine to the same distance traveled. Because it's more efficient. Alot more actually. Even a hybrid comes up short.

I'm afraid electric is:

More efficient.
Less maintenance requirements.
Higher performance.
Less environmental impact.

And the gap is widening. The next generation battery technologies will end any debate. Lithium should be obsolete in 10-15 years.

Maybe but dont forget all the diesel fuel it cost to build and maintain the power lines it takes to get from generation to the plug-in. Then the manufacturing and transportation of materials, and labor. Theres more to the plug-in than meets the eye. Im not trying to single anybody out here im just pointing out what we might be over looking. I think this world needs a well rounded diet of all types of generation and vehicles.

 

[Cojohnso1]

Although I can agree that change is inevitable, I have to ask why you say that internal combustion engines "have been obsolete for decades"? The truth, in actuality, is that they do the job that is required of them, and usually manage with good reliability, all the while giving a fair return on initial cost vs. other forms of propulsion.

Popular mechanics wrote with that narrative title "Internal combustion is obsolete." in the 70s. They were talking about personal conveyance transportation. Hell, electric damn near won the energy debate for automotive over 100 years ago. Imagine where we would be is it had?

My point is that we can live in both worlds. In fact, we will.

I want to do an experiment with my race trailer's gas generator. I would like to see how much gasoline it takes to fully charge an all electric vehicle. Then see how many miles one gets from that charge? I think everyone can agree that this is the WORST example of illustrating charging costs. A medium size 5000 watt gas generator is not the most efficient means to deliver an electric charge. Perhaps the worst. But running preliminary numbers on generator's average output to the trailer? I'm guessing car should get about 30 mi per gal. (I might be wrong. Since the charging rate is estimated thus unknown.)

If nothing else? A fun experiment. And results will need some examination. Like all I might have shown is transferring the efficiency of a smaller engine to a larger platform. A big heavy flywheel can also do that by block & tackle a small engine over a period of time. In this case the battery capacity is that flywheel?

 

[Budnicks]

Perhaps if you had chosen to continue to read the rest of the article to analyze the actual figures, you'd know how it addressed your concerns from post #55 above.

Additionally, instead of making up sentences such as "batteries are hazardous and no one knows how our country will handle disposing of all the bad ones..." you might research how many companies are already involved in re-use and recycling these batteries. Perhaps you could accurately state that you don't know how to handle disposing of them, but obviously people who make money from recycling them do have some idea. You must realize what a rich source of lithium, not to mention aluminum and steel each battery possesses, much more concentrated than the ore from which they were originally processed. It would be foolish to consider just throwing them away, when used batteries can fetch $200/kWh on the used market by hobbyist for alternative uses. Even when totally failed, these batteries are getting over $2/pound in scrap value from those who know how to make use of the components.

Your comment that coal stations are as clean as natural gas is not entirely inaccurate; the Isogo thermal power station near Yokohama, Japan is probably the world's cleanest, and it manages to match natural gas plants for emissions, but is the exception. Besides some examples in Germany and Denmark, most coal plants still produce far more pollutants. The cleanest American coal plant - Petra Nova in Texas - only lasted a few years, costing too much to be viable.

Not just directed at you but the others here touting the EVs

Do you own & actually drive an EV ?
or just taking it all on the word of others ?
or do you practice what you're preaching ?
Do you know 1st hand ?
or do you just take it on faith ?

if so
how much does it cost a month to keep the batteries up ?
how much is your monthly payment ?
how much was the sticker price ?
& how long of an actual range can you "truly" get ?
Reality not some EV BS hype, that isn't real world #'s
what kind of conditions ?
what kind of topography & terrane ?
what kind of temps ?
cold/er conditions really affects the charge & range
or do you just drive it 5-15 miles/20km each way ?
& then back on the charger over night ?

let alone the Taxpayers (Govt.) subsidies given to people
for incentives to buy an EV
how much is that now too ?

I know several people that have/own or lease an EV,
according to them, yes we'd talked, I asked
'that none of them do what has been claimed'
& just sitting there, they have a draw...
Range was horrible in the winter,
(IIRC the heater/defroster & fan on, alone was like a 1200watt draw)
All of them cost between $150-$250+ a month to keep charged
& they all actually drive there's
& it's not flat ground, it's mountains or hills, windy curvy roads/Sierras
& down into the foothills...
they only get to go down hill 1/2 the time
eat power coming back uphill
& well actually Highways, we really don't have a freeway up here
& stop & go around town, in hills & it's not the flats
like down in the valley or inner-city

Even the guy across the street son's Tesla,
(I don't know all the particulars)
To paraphrase
he says;
he likes the car, it drives/handles really well & it's fast
he said;
he drives it about 500+ miles a month, some months a lil' more
but he only claims about only 1/2 of the hype, range spouted on TV
or on here by only a couple of people...
He also said;
He now has sticker price remorse too...
near $90k (fleet deal, on sale) & it's depreciating
I asked him 'flat out', was it worth it ?
& he said NO...
@ $800+ a month payment & @ $200+ to keep it charged,
he traded in a nice Mercedes (he has sellers remorse)
let alone his insurance went way up, value/cost to replace, fire hazards...
And none of it, is any bargain...
not @ $2+ a mile to own & drive it

your

 

[Photon440]

Popular mechanics wrote with that narrative title "Internal combustion is obsolete." in the 70s. They were talking about personal conveyance transportation. Hell, electric damn near won the energy debate for automotive over 100 years ago. Imagine where we would be is it had?

My point is that we can live in both worlds. In fact, we will.

I want to do an experiment with my race trailer's gas generator. I would like to see how much gasoline it takes to fully charge an all electric vehicle. Then see how many miles one gets from that charge? I think everyone can agree that this is the WORST example of illustrating charging costs. A medium size 5000 watt gas generator is not the most efficient means to deliver an electric charge. Perhaps the worst. But running preliminary numbers on generator's average output to the trailer? I'm guessing car should get about 30 mi per gal. (I might be wrong. Since the charging rate is estimated thus unknown.)

If nothing else? A fun experiment. And results will need some examination. Like all I might have shown is transferring the efficiency of a smaller engine to a larger platform. A big heavy flywheel can also do that by block & tackle a small engine over a period of time. In this case the battery capacity is that flywheel?

It matters little to me what an old Popular Mechanics headline once touted, the very definition of the word "obsolete" means, as an adjective, "no longer produced or used; out of date". And while it seems that it will someday be forced out of popular use, it is not out of date or no longer used in today's world.

If you do your little experiment, by all means let us know the results. But in order to quantify the results, perhaps you should try to power your house with your generator for a month and compare the gasoline cost compared to collecting power from your utility company, just so we'll know what the percentage differences are when applying the same test to an EV.

 

[F4R/T]

I’ll keep my dinosaur burner.. you can keep your round about the long way coal burner.. Mine will still be cleaner and last longer.. There is an *** for every seat just not this ***!

 

[66 Sat]

Ignorance to the facts and science is no longer an excuse. The evidence is overwhelming. Fear of the facts and that future is also not an option.

I'm perplexed why so many fear the future? Of course it's not our past. It never is! Once upon a time we lit out street lamps with whale oil. Nobody suggests we go back to that. Once upon a time the people screamed that horseless carriages were the work of the devil. We moved on from that nonsense. The simple truth is that internal combustion engines have been obsolete for decades. This is truth. And in the distant truth. Electric cars will be obsolete to a future energy drive systems.

We of the United States either lead in technology gains and advancements? We we relinquish global leadership. What future to do all foresee?

A lot of "us" aren't totally fearful of electric cars, but of all the Govt. controls that come with them. We're playing into the hands of these people, who for whatever reason want to control every aspect of our lives. Our freedom is being slowly taken away - this is just another part of it.

You talk about internal combustion cars being obsolete for decades - this is absolute bullshit. How can something be obsolete when there is no viable alternative? Maybe today, right now, you can come up with an argument, but for decades? What a ridiculous statement. So all the car manufacturers in the world have been solely producing an obsolete product for decades? And everyone's been buying them? Haha good one.

 

[XS22J8R]

In the end, the market..consumers, not government or elites trying to impose their vision of utopia on the peasants, will decide if EV will be successful. If it as convenient to use and less cost to drive than ICE it will be a success, otherwise it will end up being yet another footnote in automotive history when people look back in a few decades.
I’m an engineer for a truck manufacturer and upper management pontificates about being all in toward the phase out of ICE in our products over the next several decades. I wonder if I could talk to them “of the record” what they really think.
Recently several CEOs of some foreign automakers have said trying to go EV isn’t going to work, at least not at anywhere the timeframe governments are pushing.
They recently had a preview of our EV roadshow in the front lobby of HQ. EV school buses, which we already have sold a handful, EV medium duty truck, and an EV OTR class 8 semi tractor. Also one our premium tractors with a nice wrap to match the roadshow trailer and the 2 EV trucks.
That diesel tractor actually tows the roadshow trailer, not the EV tractor. That EV truck is just a show pony.
At the days end I was leaving work, and stopped to admire our local towing contractor’s new HD tow truck, on our premium vocational truck chassis with a 15L Cummins, when I saw it parked in front of our lobby. Might be a 1M rig, nice!
The driver was hooking up the medium duty EV truck to haul it off somewhere.
That event told me about everything I need to know about EV. All show, no go.
Sorry some people are so naive to buy into all this. That dog ain’t gonna hunt. This cynical old engineer would wager big bucks with anyone who disagrees, any takers?

 

[Kern Dog]

It smacks of so many other bullshit programs pushed by leftists.....made to present an image of virtue and science but nothing of substance behind it.

 

[Cojohnso1]

In the end, the market..consumers, not government or elites trying to impose their vision of utopia on the peasants, will decide if EV will be successful. If it as convenient to use and less cost to drive than ICE it will be a success, otherwise it will end up being yet another footnote in automotive history when people look back in a few decades.
I’m an engineer for a truck manufacturer and upper management pontificates about being all in toward the phase out of ICE in our products over the next several decades. I wonder if I could talk to them “of the record” what they really think.
Recently several CEOs of some foreign automakers have said trying to go EV isn’t going to work, at least not at anywhere the timeframe governments are pushing.
They recently had a preview of our EV roadshow in the front lobby of HQ. EV school buses, which we already have sold a handful, EV medium duty truck, and an EV OTR class 8 semi tractor. Also one our premium tractors with a nice wrap to match the roadshow trailer and the 2 EV trucks.
That diesel tractor actually tows the roadshow trailer, not the EV tractor. That EV truck is just a show pony.
At the days end I was leaving work, and stopped to admire our local towing contractor’s new HD tow truck, on our premium vocational truck chassis with a 15L Cummins, when I saw it parked in front of our lobby. Might be a 1M rig, nice!
The driver was hooking up the medium duty EV truck to haul it off somewhere.
That event told me about everything I need to know about EV. All show, no go.
Sorry some people are so naive to buy into all this. That dog ain’t gonna hunt. This cynical old engineer would wager big bucks with anyone who disagrees, any takers?

Trains have been electric/diesel for decades. Diesels don't generate the low-end torque to get a train moving. They use for the performance advantage. Diesel only for electric generation.

Fossil fuel has received hundreds of billions in subsidies. Spent billions lobbying to squelch renewable research and startup deployment. And you call these renewables elites? Now that's funny.

 

[Photon440]

Trains have been electric/diesel for decades. Diesels don't generate the low-end torque to get a train moving. They use for the performance advantage. Diesel only for electric generation.

Fossil fuel has received hundreds of billions in subsidies. Spent billions lobbying to squelch renewable research and startup deployment. And you call these renewables elites? Now that's funny.

Diesels absolutely do develop low-end torque. Have you ever been in a Cummins powered truck? Did you know that the usual mainline locomotive, with 4300 horsepower has a 900 rpm redline? It doesn't get a lot lower end than that. Diesel electric was developed for other purposes, such as eliminating a clutch and complicated transmission powertrain. With electric motors on each drive wheel, there are no driveshafts, each wheelset can have it's own wheelslip indicator, and can roll along as slowly as needed...1/4 mph. or less if needed. And yes there is a need, running a loaded train through a coal dumper is pretty slow business. You can't do that with a manual transmission, and a torque converter would be on fire.

Now these little guys, the small trackmobiles used for switching rail cars around shops and outside tracks, they do have torque converters. But they're usually limited to moving 20 cars or less, move slowly and have a small enough engine that heat management is feasable. I'm talking about machines like this, which I've driven a lot of.

 

[73HEMI_RR_GTX]

Electric cars are far from green. There is not enough power grid to charge them and run the AC in California now.

https://www.newsmax.com/us/california-electriccars-powergrid/2021/06/28/id/1026765/

We just had 4 years of a businessman showing us how to run this country with our own oil. It worked pretty well, and the price was nice also. Did you forget how that worked?

View attachment 1277373

Why do some people believe the propaganda/conspiracy BS from newsmax?

USA exported more oil than we imported during the four years of the businessman. So IMO, Don't you think there would be lower gas prices in the United States if the corporate execs of the oil companies were forced to keep all oil pumped in the USA to be consumed in the USA and have a 10% profit margin cap. Both should be re-negotiated in their contracted Public Lands Lease Agreement for drilling. After all its our public land and oil that they are drilling. Also we are taking most of the burden of risk of a "SUPERFUND CLEAN-UP" if a oil spill mis-hap occurs.

Bottomline, Oil Companies are raping the public with their profit margins hitting 40-50 percent since January.

U.S. energy facts - imports and exports - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)
Analyst on why gas prices are so high (msn.com)

 

[73HEMI_RR_GTX]

Silent cars are boring. I compare it to "relations" with a blow up doll.
(I'm guessing....I've yet to indulge in either of those things)

That is a concern that can easily be corrected. I believe when electric cars has the extra battery length they will be replicating a "Vurrrrm." And we will be arguing that the replicated sound is not the same. And of course that would be correct. Digital can only hope to match analog sound. And does lose sound quality in digital format.

Hell,
by then most of us will be so old and lost our hearing nobody will give a sheet.

 

[Cojohnso1]

Hell,
by then most of us will be so old and lost our hearing nobody will give a sheet.

That is true. We may see 50/50 EV vs Gas in our lifetime. I'm guessing most will have one of each? EV for daily short runs. Gas for longer and recreational.