Fender tag resto - found this on mopar facebook swap
- Thread starter bigmanjbmopar
- Start date
69Coronetrt
Well-Known Member
Yep. Lotta money for a bad product. Lots of guys, some on this board, have paid good money for bad tags.
bigmanjbmopar
Newb with a view
What do you mean bad product? does it come back made out of cardboard or something? I'm not going to do it cuz I don't need it but would like to know more now.
ECS
Well-Known Member
Don't let anyone lecture you about the integrity of wanting a Fender Tag reproduced. They were nothing more than a piece of metal that was used to list options (for Assembly Line Workers) prior to the vehicle being painted. They possess no legal ramifications whatsoever. The Hobby has made up imaginary rules regarding Fender Tags to accommodate the self appointed registry guys that have no authority over the topic.
The equipment AG uses to manufacture Chrysler Fender Tags are the actual NCR stamping machines that were used by the Factory. If you provide correct information, they will manufacture a very authentic item.
69Coronetrt
Well-Known Member
Dave, I usually love your posts. On this one...LOL.
ECS
Well-Known Member
Feel free to let me know where I am mistaken or misguided on the topic. Thanks!
69Coronetrt
Well-Known Member
Not takin' the bait.
ECS
Well-Known Member
You threw out the line. I don't blame you for not engaging however.........it's hard to counter the facts with opinionated emotion.
kdtjb
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You have any pictures for an example? Seems as tho I have asked you this before and never got a reply. It's true the fender tag is not what any DMV looks for, but if you are looking for a 100 point restoration like some are it might be nice to see what your talking about. I know on my 69 roadrunners the tags differ from plant to another. Cal. for sure.
ECS
Well-Known Member
Correct. Fender Tags were nothing more than metal "Broadcast Sheets" used to provide build instructions to the Line Workers. A paper Broadcast Sheet would not have survived the primer, paint and baking processes. These metal tags conveyed information pertaining to the construction of the vehicle's Body, prior to the paint process. You will see things on a Fender Tag like a Vinyl Top (for instance) because it notified the Line Workers that the Body need to be drilled for the stainless trim that was attached below the rear Window. Body/metal alterations of this type had to be performed before the vehicle was painted.
A Fender tag has no Federal or legal significance with regards to vehicle registration. The Hobby has self imposed their importance as it relates to vehicle documentation. No authorized/legal entity or DMV Agency views them a vehicle registration piece.
69Coronetrt
Well-Known Member
Of bad tags in general or his bad work specifically? Here's one of his. It's actually my car. It was made for a previous owner. AG admitted to me he made the tag without documentation and guessed at some of the items. He was willing to add options to the tag that did not come on the car.
This board, and others, are littered with examples of bad tags made at not a cheap cost.
Most people restoring a car rely on the vendors to provide an accurate part, whether it is a piece of trim, a fastener or piece of sheet metal, for the money they pay.
Some vendors go above and beyond regarding accuracy and are incredibly **** about getting the smallest specific details 100% correct for their customers. They want things dead nuts correct in their products (Dave...I'm talking about you. I'm recalling the XS29V0G H51 car and your posts on labels for inflator bottles. You nailed the XS29 car).
Some vendors are not. People send money to tag makers and expect an accurate product. The boards are littered with bad tags that people paid good money for only to get a bad product.
Whether we like it or not, a fender tag is one piece of documentation that most people rely on to determine the pedigree of the car (whether it should or should not be is a different topic). Most people buying a cool Mopar for the first time do not have the expertise to spot bogus tags or fake documents. They rely on the tag to tell them what the car is and how it came equipped. Bad tags are how Satellites get turned into GTXs and Coronet 440s get turned into Super Bees. Bad tags are how 'unicorns' get made. (XS29VOG H51 car) Relying on a bogus fender tag is how people get ripped off when they buy a car.
There are details on some tags that only came on the tag (LR sequence numbers for example). Not all codes were used all year at all plants. Not all plants coded the same way. Guessing at the numbers or codes just to complete a tag and order does not do anyone any good.
I have no problem with the concept of fender tags being remade USING THE ORIGINAL TAG AS A TEMPLATE. I have a problem with tag vendors charging customers good money then providing a bad product because they will not ask for documentation or do the proper research. Is that a bad thing?
If you have to have a new tag made just to have one, do not assume the vendor knows how to make one that is accurate for your car. Simply having a Broadcast sheet may not be enough.
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ECS
Well-Known Member
I understand what you're saying but isn't it a bit disingenuous to blame a vendor for incorrect information provided (or not provided) by the Customer? I manufacture all kinds of items that are specific to the characteristics of a Customer's vehicle. If they do not provide the correct information (for a Window Sticker) and I reproduce it with the data they provide, should I be faulted for the errors?
Things like VIN decals are different. Unless the Customer provides documented information, we won't make it. Items like Fender Tags, Window Stickers, Traveler Sheets, etc....... do not require the same certified documentation because they are not viewed as a "legal" or registered items. I actually think the Window Stickers have more legal significance than ANY of the items previously mentioned but they are not. We could actually make ANY Window Sticker for a vehicle that a Customer provided data for, even if certain options didn't come on that car.
69Coronetrt
Well-Known Member
Dave, why you continue to defend and advocate people use vendors that do not have the same business integrity, desire for product accuracy and customer service you do is beyond me. Happy holidays.......
ECS
Well-Known Member
Wow.....you just don't get it do you? A bad product? Business Integrity? There isn't a thing wrong with their product or integrity! The bottom line is that vendors are in business to provide a service to their Customers. When it comes to products that require INDIVIDUAL VEHICLE INFORMATION, their products are only as good as the data that is provided to them. If a Customer doesn't care enough to do the proper research on their own car, you can't blame a vendor for not catching their errors.
This is similar in concept to someone losing their Birth Certificate and needing to have it reproduced. If that person mis-spelled their Mother's maiden name and gave the information to the Agency, should the Agency be blamed for not knowing or fixing the mis-spelling of her name? How are they suppose to know every little detail or personal characteristic about the person they are trying to help? If a person's vehicle is not important enough to them to do the proper research, you can't expect it to be important enough for a vendor (who knows nothing about it) to do the research for them. Their not in business to correct the mistakes provided to them by the Customer.
When a Customer provides data to me about their vehicle, I don't grill them and ask them if they're sure about the information they are providing. If I did that, I'm sure they would become disgruntled and think I was being condescending of THEIR knowledge about THEIR vehicle. You can't win for losing! If something stands out as blatantly wrong, I'll intercede. When doing a Window Sticker, if they give me the wrong exterior color to their car, how am I suppose to know that it's wrong?
69Coronetrt
Well-Known Member
Nice way to take a complement. LOL
ECS
Well-Known Member
To be more accurate....a back handed "compliment". Right is right & wrong is wrong. I don't compromise the two in order to build a fan base. I find it disingenuous that you come here bashing another vendor based on incomplete information. It sounds like the person you bought your car from had the Fender Tag made. One would conclude that he was happy with it by the fact that he painted it and put it on the car. He most likely provided the "bad product" information and they manufactured it per his instructions. You bought the car, did more research and are now blaming AG for not knowing the information that you found after further researching the vehicle. I think you might be better suited to blame the person you bought the car from for providing erroneous information and not the Company he commissioned to make his Tag.
kdtjb
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I see what you are saying now, I think. The tags appearance is good, too good to tell it from a real tag, but the info on it is bad. Unless you do a bunch of studying on the subject. So if I had a tag that was rusted out, but still readable and I had it redone the same as factory, it would be correct to the eye. My tags are all good, and because I know the history of the cars I know they are original. Also they aren't the type of cars that would get faked. Auto on the column ect. I was hoping you had a visual clue to give us that could expose a bad tag. Thanks.
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Would you care to pick apart your own tag, just for what we might look for.
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