Firm Feel torsion bars and tubular upper control arm install

[dpstark2]

Just thought I'd post this in case anyone is interested or considering the same- I installed some 1.06" torsion bars and tubular upper control arms in my '67 Charger. I installed them because my torsion bars were just plain worn out and while I was in there I thought I'd help the handling a bit with the control arms.

After finally getting some drive time in the car, I'm very happy with the results. I got 3.5 degrees of caster and I have the car basically level, so the front is a bit lower than stock. The ride is firm, but not harsh. No more bouncy front wheel action. The steering wheel centers pretty nicely coming out of turns (I have a FF stage 2 box and front sway bar too), and you actually have to steer the car around corners. The car doesn't wander much at all any more. It stays pretty level around corners, though the tail does sway a bit.

Maybe one of these days I'll stiffen up the body with some subframe connectors, maybe add a rear sway bar. For now, all those upgrades make the car much, much more comfortable and fun to drive. This set of upgrades is second in terms of my satisfaction only to the big brakes I put up front. And, while going fast is good, saving your hide from a clueless driver is a good plan too... I got to test that too recently, and probably would have wrecked my car if it stopped and handled like it did when I got it.

 

[Greg Ducato]

Those are the same mods I had planned for my 66 Charger, thanks for the post it is go to know

 

[dpstark2]

You're welcome. That was the point- I'm only one guy, but I thought my experience might be helpful to someone.

 

[Classicironman]

How did you look the stage 2 firm feel box, and if you don't mind me askng what do they go for these days, I have always relied on finding used police car units and going with the bigger Pitman arms, I don't think I wil have the good fortune to find a non leaking unit for my 69 X I was also looking at a set of torsion bar upgrades to the .096 MP pieces, these will run me about 230. delivered, I was wondering what the ride quality was like on your bigger bars. Anyway I would love to chat with you before I make the purchases I can only afford to get it done once and I want to make sure I get it right. I already have the caliper brackets for 11.75 in brakes so I have that covered. Just need the rest of the parts to make them work.

john

 

[dpstark2]

The FF stage 2 box is great. With the stock arms, it felt much better than my worn out original (they actually just rebuilt mine). It cost about $450. Definitely not cheap. In retrospect, I would probably even go stage 3. I would not go that far if you were going to use quick ratio arms. With headers and my limited fab skills, I can't use the quick ratio arms as things stand. Maybe someday though- I know a guy working on fitting some to his RR and maybe we'll find out it can be done.

The torsion bars are fine- I was worried they might be too stiff, but I think part of the key is getting the preload right. If you're dropping your ride height a bit, you probably need a stiffer bar to get the preload at the ride height to work for you. These bars are 2x the rate of the .88" bars I had. They are notably stiffer than the .96" bar cars I've ridden in, though those were probably worn too.

Initially I questioned whether the bars and UCAs were worth the trouble and the money, but after driving it for a while, I am sold. I also know that there are cheaper parts out there, but people have complained about the clocking being wrong on some of the larger torsion bars. These were perfect. They cost a bit, but FF has always steered me right (get it?) and they know Mopar. The ride is firm, but controlled and not at all harsh.

If you have the caliper brackets for large rotors, I'd recommend stock calipers (parts store, Summit, etc.) and The Ram Man's drilled and slotted rotors with EBC red pads. I believe he has plain rotors too. Beware the parts store junk rotors. I love my current setup. I can't comment on longevity yet, but it saved my arse last weekend. I'd like to rear discs for the increased feel, but as it is, those discs and factory drums work pretty well. I do have an adjustable proportioning valve plumbed to the rear, and I ended up with a 1.031" master cylinder. I tried 15/16" and 1" and this worked best for me.

If you have specific questions, I'm happy to talk via PM- Firm Feel is also happy to make recommendations. They're good people.

 

[Chris]

I have not upgraded to the FFI box but a I have almost everything else. I even did the Moparts power steering shim. It all feels pretty tight and I am pleased with the results...

The FF stage 2 box is great. With the stock arms, it felt much better than my worn out original (they actually just rebuilt mine). It cost about $450. Definitely not cheap. In retrospect, I would probably even go stage 3. I would not go that far if you were going to use quick ratio arms. With headers and my limited fab skills, I can't use the quick ratio arms as things stand. Maybe someday though- I know a guy working on fitting some to his RR and maybe we'll find out it can be done.

The torsion bars are fine- I was worried they might be too stiff, but I think part of the key is getting the preload right. If you're dropping your ride height a bit, you probably need a stiffer bar to get the preload at the ride height to work for you. These bars are 2x the rate of the .88" bars I had. They are notably stiffer than the .96" bar cars I've ridden in, though those were probably worn too.

Initially I questioned whether the bars and UCAs were worth the trouble and the money, but after driving it for a while, I am sold. I also know that there are cheaper parts out there, but people have complained about the clocking being wrong on some of the larger torsion bars. These were perfect. They cost a bit, but FF has always steered me right (get it?) and they know Mopar. The ride is firm, but controlled and not at all harsh.

If you have the caliper brackets for large rotors, I'd recommend stock calipers (parts store, Summit, etc.) and The Ram Man's drilled and slotted rotors with EBC red pads. I believe he has plain rotors too. Beware the parts store junk rotors. I love my current setup. I can't comment on longevity yet, but it saved my arse last weekend. I'd like to rear discs for the increased feel, but as it is, those discs and factory drums work pretty well. I do have an adjustable proportioning valve plumbed to the rear, and I ended up with a 1.031" master cylinder. I tried 15/16" and 1" and this worked best for me.

If you have specific questions, I'm happy to talk via PM- Firm Feel is also happy to make recommendations. They're good people.

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

On your 1.031" bore master cylinder does your pedal feel require a lot more effort than when you tried the 15/16"? I have 15/16" with 8" dual diaphragm booster, napa 11.75" flat rotors, wilwoods forged dynalite calipers, and the AREngineering caliper adapters to fit the big rotors. Also have adjustable wilwoods pro portioning valve and wilwoods BP-10 pads. I got the proportioning valve dialed in to control rear end movement during brake lockup, but I feel like the brake pedal should feel a little snappier. When I got the car it had stock booster and MC with front disc and it would put you through the windshield if you slammed on the brakes. I think I want something in-between that and what I have now. If I go bigger on MC bore though it should make my pedal feel require even more effort or at least have slightly less braking power, right?

Someone I talked to told me about a MC upgrade kit you can get that improves pedal feel due to aftermarket MC pushrods travel issues, but I haven't been able to find what they are talking about anywhere.

I would also be interested to hear feedback on the EBC red pads vs the wilwoods BP-10s.

 

[dpstark2]

Well, I'm not an expert, but I think you have to consider pedal travel vs. pushrod travel at the MC vs. caliper piston size. The 15/16" bore had less pedal effort, but significantly more pedal travel. The 1.031" will move 21% more fluid in the primary bore (front brakes) than the 15/16". The pedal effort is high- higher than modern cars- but the pedal will not bottom out. I felt like the 15/16" would bottom out. I couldn't verify this, but it did seem to bottom (or nearly) in use. The 1" bore was a decent compromise, but when I had things apart once, I swapped to the 1.031" because that was what was used (I think- don't kill me if I'm wrong) in later cars with the big brakes.

However, the situation will be different for different calipers. I think Wilwood spec's a 1.125" bore. A lot of people use that size with calipers with more pistons- think about the surface area of the pistons in the calipers- I did the math once and I think the factory 4 piston brakes (which I have driven a car with and work great, as long as the don't rust out) have about 20% more area than the single piston 2.75" pucks.

In general, yes, a big MC will increase pedal effort. I do feel that it provides better feedback though- the small MC was very wooden in my opinion. This one gives me decent feedback at the cost of pedal effort. However, I don't feel in danger of lacking braking power. I can definitely lock up my wheels if I want to.

I can't comment on EBC vs. Wilwood, but the EBC reds are night and day vs. stock cheap-o pads. MC's are pretty cheap if you get parts store re-man, so there's not much harm in trying it (except your time). The EBC pads are NOT CHEAP.

 

[69 Satellite Conv]

Good thread. I am putting in a FF stage 3 with fast ratio pitman and idler, right stuff front disk conversion, FF upper control arms, bigger sway bar, suspension kit, and bilstien shocks. I have manual brakes and power steering. Wasn't sure to do the torsion bar yet, sub frame stiffeners, rear sway and disks. Motor is about two weeks from getting back so won't know anything for awhile. Torsion bar discussion has me thinking though.........