Flat tappet lifters, wear patterns, cam lobe taper and other things. Let's swap opinions and ideas.

[Kern Dog]

Please, no.

 

[hofferwood]

Say his name 2 more times----------------and he'll show up.

 

[RemCharger]

Say his name 2 more times----------------and he'll show up.

Not so fast!!..
Happy birthday to RJ Renton

 

[INTMD8]

My engine turned 550 HP and 675 Lb Ft of torque when I ran it on a chassis dyno at the Hot Rod Power Tour (as driven on the tour: full mufflers, air cleaner on, etc.). This was a "fun run" event, so I had no opportunity to tune anything. The horsepower dropped off after about 4900 RPM. Something was going on, and it likely is a fuel delivery problem. With 675 torque, Horsepower should be up over 600. But I haven't had time to diagnose the issue and find that lost HP.


EVERY TIME. Also, my father-in-law's shop won't even build a flat tappet engine without lifters that direct oil the cam (they do this through a small hole drilled in the bottom or a small groove in the lifter that allows oil to seep through on to the cam).

This dyno?

HawkRod is doing the 2023 Hot Rod Power Tour!

Nice! What lake in TN(?) is that? It's North Holston Lake. My picture is not a great shot, but it was really nice. Nice Hawk. Horsepower seems about right for full exhaust. Torque seems a bit high, but nobody would argue with you if you took them for a ride:rofl: As I said, I'm not sure...

www.forbbodiesonly.com

If so, loss of valve control IMO

 

[HawkRod]

This dyno?

http://[URL]https://www.forbbodieso...-rod-power-tour.262286/page-13#post-912558901

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If so, loss of valve control IMO

That's the other thought that came to mind, but my spring pressures are decent: 140# seated and 325# open. And these numbers are for "broken in" springs, not new ones that lose a few pounds after running. It just doesn't seem reasonable that these springs would start losing control at 4900 RPM?

 

[INTMD8]

It's not just pressures but can also be weak pushrods, springs very far away from coil bind at max lift, heavy components (large diameter springs/steel retainers, heavy valves).

Just my guess as my 426 hemi dyno looked just like that when I first got it. (And it suffered from everything I mentioned above.)

 

[HawkRod]

It's not just pressures but can also be weak pushrods, springs very far away from coil bind at max lift, heavy components (large diameter springs/steel retainers, heavy valves).

Just my guess as my 426 hemi dyno looked just like that when I first got it. (And it suffered from everything I mentioned above.)

You know, part of what you said just tweaked my curiosity (in red).

First, yes, ideally a spring should be about .050" before coil bind (at max lift) to minimize spring vibrations and harmonics. Off the top of my head, I don't remember what my measurements were. They were not ideal, but not either terrible. I'll dig up my folder at some point and look it up.

My heads have beehive springs, so they are quite light, BUT, my hydraulic roller lifters are pigs. Maybe? Although I guess those would then necessitate higher spring pressures to keep them in check?

I'm not sure what you mean by "weak pushrods". Do you mean pushrods that are too thin and that flex? Again, I don't remember what I have in my engine, but I'm thinking they are pretty decent.

Regardless, thanks for the ideas and brainstorming - I appreciate it!

 

[INTMD8]

Weight will make MUCH more difference on the valve side.

So lightweight valves, springs/retainers/locks are very helpful. Rocker weight can make a big difference.

Pushrod weight and lifter weight I'm sure can influence things but it doesn't seem to.

So you want the stiffest pushrods regardless of weight or you can get a pole vault effect.

I thought you were flat tappet.

For hydraulic roller, even with beehive I would think it needs at least another 25lb seat pressure and 50lbs over the nose.

 

[HawkRod]

Weight will make MUCH more difference on the valve side.

So lightweight valves, springs/retainers/locks are very helpful. Rocker weight can make a big difference.

Pushrod weight and lifter weight I'm sure can influence things but it doesn't seem to.

So you want the stiffest pushrods regardless of weight or you can get a pole vault effect.

I thought you were flat tappet.

For hydraulic roller, even with beehive I would think it needs at least another 25lb seat pressure and 50lbs over the nose.

Thanks for the thoughts - again, much appreciated!

I have aluminum roller rockers, aluminum Edelbrock heads and high quality stainless valves.

I'm not sure why lifter weight doesn't influence things - the mass of the lifter still has to be stopped and pushed down after max lift on the cam. Regardless, I agree with the spring pressure thoughts and I plan to increase spring pressure a bit.

Having said all that, I still believe the most likely culprit is fuel delivery. This engine combo was owned previously by @qkcuda
I bought the engine from him and freshened the engine since he had it, but his car ran well without these issues. The only notable change since he had the engine is the fuel induction and, of course tuning. Dave used a carb and I am using F.A.S.T. fuel injection. I am also controlling timing through the computer.

I have hijacked this thread enough, but at least I hope others find this discussion helpful regarding valvetrain and cams.

 

[INTMD8]

The lifter and pushrod weight don't seem to influence much as it's moving 1.5 -1.8 times slower and less distance than the valve side. (whatever the rocker ratio is)

 

[HawkRod]

The lifter and pushrod weight don't seem to influence much as it's moving 1.5 -1.8 times slower and less distance than the valve side. (whatever the rocker ratio is)

Great point, and of course I know that.

Ahem: But of course I need my brain to think of these things for it to be any value!!!

 

[INTMD8]

It's not always obvious.

The other effect there is that if it has say 150 seat pressure and 400 open and 1.5 rockers the pushrods/lifters are actually seeing 225/600 lbs

 

[qkcuda]

Thanks for the thoughts - again, much appreciated!

I have aluminum roller rockers, aluminum Edelbrock heads and high quality stainless valves.
View attachment 1756921

I'm not sure why lifter weight doesn't influence things - the mass of the lifter still has to be stopped and pushed down after max lift on the cam. Regardless, I agree with the spring pressure thoughts and I plan to increase spring pressure a bit.

Having said all that, I still believe the most likely culprit is fuel delivery. This engine combo was owned previously by @qkcuda
I bought the engine from him and freshened the engine since he had it, but his car ran well without these issues. The only notable change since he had the engine is the fuel induction and, of course tuning. Dave used a carb and I am using F.A.S.T. fuel injection. I am also controlling timing through the computer.

I have hijacked this thread enough, but at least I hope others find this discussion helpful regarding valvetrain and cams.

Hawk, are you still running the beehive springs?

 

[HawkRod]

Hawk, are you still running the beehive springs?

Yes. They measured (obviously used) at 140# seated and 325# open. Since spring always lose a bit in the first few hundred miles, I'm guessing they would have been north of 150# seated when brand new.

 

[Rebelrouser]

Most of us have heard of how engines with flat tappet camshafts have had increased failures in the past 15-20 years. There are a bunch of opinions on what is to blame but so far, I have seen no 100% smoking gun on the exact cause. The potential causes are numerous.
Reduced zinc in oil.
Camshafts and lifters made with softer metal than before.
Lower quality machining from Chinese factories.
Lifters that don't spin in the bores.
Valvesprings too stiff.
Improper break in.
Etc, etc....
While all of those things may be true AND if you have more than one of those situations together, the chances of a failure seem to grow exponentially.
I know that there are several threads on this site covering this topic, I was hoping to expand a bit on what has already been mentioned.
Being one with a curious mind, I wonder about a few things...
We have been told that with flat tappet systems, the lifters mate to the lobes. How? I've read that they establish a pattern to each other and that to swap in another lifter, it must be NEW and that the "break in" starts all over for that lifter.
Why? Has anyone ever published pictures and measurements of the actual wear patterns?
Who remembers Jim LaRoy/IQ52 ? he mentioned before that he has swapped lifters around and even reused them in dyno testing and had no failures. How is this possible?
I remember a buddy going out to the junkyard and pulling a couple lifters from an engine to swap into his engine. He had a couple sticky lifters in an old beater. I don't recall any future troubles that he had.
I did the same to a stock 318 years ago.

Go to YouTube Powell machine has a whole series of videos on cam failures. This one is showing how they check and what to look for when checking new lifters

 

[Ceedawg]

Ceedawg,
I am not the idiot. Have a look at how many ticks your posts are getting........
You are making wrong statements. Get it? I am correcting them so that others do not absorb your faulty advice.
I don't need to 'read the internet', as I was building engines & fault finding looooong before the i'net arrived.
Don't write rubbish & then nobody will question your info. Grow up!

I built MY first engine in the 60s. Nothing I’ve said is incorrect (edge meaning even .0001 from center is considered edge), cam gets smaller when grinding, in a sense it does but only on the base, when wanting more lift, too bad you can’t understand this. I know who’s talking rubbish

 

[Ceedawg]

The lifter and pushrod weight don't seem to influence much as it's moving 1.5 -1.8 times slower and less distance than the valve side. (whatever the rocker ratio is)

Isky built the cam-rollers and rev kit for my engine (70s) the rev kit (springs over push rods to a rack under heads) on a general look see I found my valve springs had many 10 pounds seat pressure, I could turn retainer with thumb and finger. Engine had been turning 6800 like that. I changed springs that day.
Normal spring has to push lifter, pushrod, rocker, valve and retainer back so any weight loss will help. A great thing to see is the super slow mo vid of a spring at high rpm, the harmonics are crazy.

 

[INTMD8]

Not a fan of rev kits myself nor do I think weigh matters on the lifter.

I see high end titanium valves. I've never seen a titanium lifter.

As for turning 6800 with a rev kit and 10lbs on the seat, I think it would be very unhappy and your pistons were probably closing the valves.

 

[Ceedawg]

Not a fan of rev kits myself nor do I think weigh matters on the lifter.

I see high end titanium valves. I've never seen a titanium lifter.

As for turning 6800 with a rev kit and 10lbs on the seat, I think it would be very unhappy and your pistons were probably closing the valves.

Oh I’m glad I found it out before but the rev kit did save that engine.. those springs had considerable strength, the Max heads had no heat crossover so I made a stud to hold the bracket square in that spot.

 

[Geoff 2]

Ceedawg,
I also know who is talking rubbish....& it is not me. Do you think when they regrind a cam they only grind the base circle area......& leave the rest of the worn lobe untouched & blend it into the newly ground section?????????? Ready to destroy the new lifters that will be used because the lobe taper has been worn away? You must be really dumb if you think that.