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For the voltmeter conversion crowd

72RoadrunnerGTX

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And the myth of the spontaneously combusting ammeter is perpetuated once again. By far the most factually inaccurate article I’ve read promoting voltmeter conversions to date.
Along with multiple false statements, it literally conflates the later truck plastic ammeter melt down fiasco with all Mopar passenger car ammeters from the era.
https://www.hemmings.com/stories/20...n-ammeter-with-a-voltmeter-in-a-vintage-mopar
 
And the myth of the spontaneously combusting ammeter is perpetuated once again. By far the most factually inaccurate article I’ve read promoting voltmeter conversions to date.
Along with multiple false statements, it literally conflates the later truck plastic ammeter melt down fiasco with all Mopar passenger car ammeters from the era.
https://www.hemmings.com/stories/20...n-ammeter-with-a-voltmeter-in-a-vintage-mopar
Seems pretty accurate to me. What did he get wrong?
 
Let’s start with this paragraph


"It's not that ammeters didn't once have their place. In the days of low-output generators and relatively untaxed electrical systems, the ammeter - a device that monitors the electrical system's current and relays whether the system is charging or discharging - arguably does a better job of alerting the driver to faults in the system than a voltmeter. But the ammeter also had its faults, primarily arising from the fact that all system current has to flow through the ammeter for it to work. That means, at its most basic, wiring from the generator or alternator, through a bulkhead connector, through the alternator, on to feed the rest of the electrical system, back through the bulkhead connector, and back to the battery. As the wiring ages, its electrical resistance increases. As the output of the alternator increases, so does the amount of current going through the ammeter. Both create additional heat, often in the workings of the ammeter. It also doesn't help when carmakers use shunts to tune the ammeters, adding even more heat right at the gauge. At some point, it proves too much for the ammeter, and when it gives up the ghost, it takes the car's entire electrical system down with it."
 
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Let’s start with this paragraph


"It's not that ammeters didn't once have their place. In the days of low-output generators and relatively untaxed electrical systems, the ammeter - a device that monitors the electrical system's current and relays whether the system is charging or discharging - arguably does a better job of alerting the driver to faults in the system than a voltmeter. But the ammeter also had its faults, primarily arising from the fact that all system current has to flow through the ammeter for it to work. That means, at its most basic, wiring from the generator or alternator, through a bulkhead connector, through the alternator, on to feed the rest of the electrical system, back through the bulkhead connector, and back to the battery. As the wiring ages, its electrical resistance increases. As the output of the alternator increases, so does the amount of current going through the ammeter. Both create additional heat, often in the workings of the ammeter. It also doesn't help when carmakers use shunts to tune the ammeters, adding even more heat right at the gauge. At some point, it proves too much for the ammeter, and when it gives up the ghost, it takes the car's entire electrical system down with it."
That's actually pretty factual. What part of that paragraph do you claim to be "The most factually inaccurate."?
 
Let’s start with this paragraph


"It's not that ammeters didn't once have their place. In the days of low-output generators and relatively untaxed electrical systems, the ammeter - a device that monitors the electrical system's current and relays whether the system is charging or discharging - arguably does a better job of alerting the driver to faults in the system than a voltmeter. But the ammeter also had its faults, primarily arising from the fact that all system current has to flow through the ammeter for it to work. That means, at its most basic, wiring from the generator or alternator, through a bulkhead connector, through the alternator, on to feed the rest of the electrical system, back through the bulkhead connector, and back to the battery. As the wiring ages, its electrical resistance increases. As the output of the alternator increases, so does the amount of current going through the ammeter. Both create additional heat, often in the workings of the ammeter. It also doesn't help when carmakers use shunts to tune the ammeters, adding even more heat right at the gauge. At some point, it proves too much for the ammeter, and when it gives up the ghost, it takes the car's entire electrical system down with it."
That about sums it up. Fixed more than I can remember. First thing I did on my Charger build is get all the loads out of the inside and convert to a voltmeter.
 
Not exactly sure what the argument is here, we know that an ammeter "can" be the cause of a potentially catastrophic event (aka fire) and we also know that not every car will experience this but some will (statistically). Sure you can take steps to minimize the possibility but the question then becomes "why", for originality sake? If thats the case, go on and run an ammeter but for most everyone else why would you risk it when you don't have to.

This is like refusing to carry a fire extinguisher in the car because you are "sure" it will never catch fire when you know that its always a possibility (for a whole host of reasons). The purpose of either gauge is to provide the driver/owner with an "indication" of the health of the charging system. Perhaps an ammeter is somewhat of a better gauge but to what end?

There is a reason that the industry stopped using them but if you want the originality of it, go ahead (and carry a fire extinguisher regardless).
 
Not exactly sure what the argument is here, we know that an ammeter "can" be the cause of a potentially catastrophic event (aka fire) and we also know that not every car will experience this but some will (statistically). Sure you can take steps to minimize the possibility but the question then becomes "why", for originality sake? If thats the case, go on and run an ammeter but for most everyone else why would you risk it when you don't have to.

This is like refusing to carry a fire extinguisher in the car because you are "sure" it will never catch fire when you know that its always a possibility (for a whole host of reasons). The purpose of either gauge is to provide the driver/owner with an "indication" of the health of the charging system. Perhaps an ammeter is somewhat of a better gauge but to what end?

There is a reason that the industry stopped using them but if you want the originality of it, go ahead (and carry a fire extinguisher regardless).
Not exactly sure what argument you refer to. No, “we” don’t all know these passenger car ammeters “can”, or will, for no reason whatsoever, be the cause of a fire. Loose ammeter stud nuts, failed insulators, high aftermarket loads incorrectly connected at the battery, lack of maintenance, abuse at the ammeter terminal connections likely have led to enough resistance and heat build up to burn things. On that, I must take the word of others, in my experience dating back to my time at the dealers, wrenched on many Chrysler vehicles then and now, never saw the “spontaneous combustion” of one these passenger car ammeters. There are other issues in the stock charging system that have caused problems since day one.

There is nothing within “the workings of the ammeter”, in good condition, good connections, when operating within its design limits, can “cause” heat build-up, simple stout brass bus. There are no heat generating internal shunts or shunt resistors.

Statistically? Statistically, wheels fall off cars every day because someone didn’t torque the lug nuts, do you blame the wheel? Tires blow out every day because air pressures are not maintained or their design loads have been exceeded, blame the tire? And vehicle electrical fires happen every day caused by poorly maintained or abused electrical systems, totally unrelated to 50+ year old cars, ammeter or not.

Even now, any serious real-time monitoring of DC circuits in any kind of vehicle, includes the use of ammeters in some form. Monitoring the charging system health in real-time with a voltmeter alone, provides little more info than an idiot lamp.

I carry fire extinguishers in all my cars as well, not because I fear my electrical systems. I know and understand the current state of my electrical systems inside and out, ammeter and all. More concerned with the failure of some pressurized fuel handling component, i.e., a failed needle and seat.

The primary reason for any automotive production change is unit cost period. If you imply that the move away from passenger car ammeters back then was for any other reason, you would be mistaken.

For those not seeing the inaccurate facts stated that article, I’ve highlighted a few of the more blatant factually inaccurate statements in that one paragraph posted above.
 
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I’ve found the bulkhead connector to be more problematic. As it ages it corrodes and the connection becomes weak, sometimes melting the plastic. The police package addressed this with a thru grommet and no firewall disconnect.
 
I don't claim to know much about this part of the electrical system BUT it seems to me that a lot of us are upgrading to higher output alternators to handle such things as EFI, etc. In my opinion that should require heavier gauge wiring AND you want to keep as little current as possible going into the passenger compartment - using relays near the high current components. So this pretty much eliminates using the ammeter.
 
The primary reason for any automotive production change is unit cost period. If you imply that the move away from passenger car ammeters back then was for any other reason, you would be mistaken.
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I agree, there is a lot of “Kool-Aid” being created and consumed relating to this subject, I can assure you I don’t partake, never have.
 
just afew days a friend posted that same article on the 3rd gen Charger board and I told to be picky with the info posted there.
 
Let’s start with this paragraph


"It's not that ammeters didn't once have their place. In the days of low-output generators and relatively untaxed electrical systems, the ammeter - a device that monitors the electrical system's current and relays whether the system is charging or discharging - arguably does a better job of alerting the driver to faults in the system than a voltmeter. But the ammeter also had its faults, primarily arising from the fact that all system current has to flow through the ammeter for it to work. That means, at its most basic, wiring from the generator or alternator, through a bulkhead connector, through the alternator, on to feed the rest of the electrical system, back through the bulkhead connector, and back to the battery. As the wiring ages, its electrical resistance increases. As the output of the alternator increases, so does the amount of current going through the ammeter. Both create additional heat, often in the workings of the ammeter. It also doesn't help when carmakers use shunts to tune the ammeters, adding even more heat right at the gauge. At some point, it proves too much for the ammeter, and when it gives up the ghost, it takes the car's entire electrical system down with it."

That's actually pretty factual. What part of that paragraph do you claim to be "The most factually inaccurate."?

I'm going just to tell ONE of the inaccurancies of the quote posted by 72RoadrunnerGTX, which is bolded and I'm gonna tell you WHY is inaccurate

"the fact that all system current has to flow through the ammeter for it to work."

if you don´t know WHY this phrase is bold to show the inaccurancy I'm gonna tell you why.

BECAUSE is NOT TRUE ALL THE SYSTEM CURRENT has to flow through the ammeter. JUST THE CURRENT RELATED TO BATT on Charge or Discharge stages is what flows throught the ammeter. You can get a fully loaded batt, and your CHARGING system will feed all accesories which, as far are correctly sourced from alt side of the Charging system ARE OUT OF THE ammeter reading. This means, ZERO reading on ammeter. Zero it means NO LOAD/CURRENT going throught the ammeter.

I'm gonna let you guess why the rest of phrasses are bolded by 72RoadrunnerGTX.
 
I'm going just to tell ONE of the inaccurancies of the quote posted by 72RoadrunnerGTX, which is bolded and I'm gonna tell you WHY is inaccurate

"the fact that all system current has to flow through the ammeter for it to work."

if you don´t know WHY this phrase is bold to show the inaccurancy I'm gonna tell you why.

BECAUSE is NOT TRUE ALL THE SYSTEM CURRENT has to flow through the ammeter. JUST THE CURRENT RELATED TO BATT on Charge or Discharge stages is what flows throught the ammeter. You can get a fully loaded batt, and your CHARGING system will feed all accesories which, as far are correctly sourced from alt side of the Charging system ARE OUT OF THE ammeter reading. This means, ZERO reading on ammeter. Zero it means NO LOAD/CURRENT going throught the ammeter.

I'm gonna let you guess why the rest of phrasses are bolded by 72RoadrunnerGTX.
So when you are all done the ammeter is doing little to nothing. Wiring all loads to the alternator stud is not correctly wiring the system. This bull crap of running loads off the alternator stud is just wrong for many reasons. The loads should be directly pulled from the source. The battery. The alternator then just has to do its job. Wiring the alternator directly to the battery is the best and safest way. Then using the voltmeter to monitor it.
 
You know since most of the "non glamorous" things on these cars don't ever get looked at until it fails, which ever side you are on you just won't know the condition of your connections until you look.
If this debate does nothing else than to get more people to pay more attention to the electrical side of their cars, the result will be less roadside breakdowns and yes, electrical fires which do happen.
Like the saying goes that 1 life lost is too many, how many fires do you want your car to "possibly" have ?
 
Not exactly sure what argument you refer to. No, “we” don’t all know these passenger car ammeters “can”, or will, for no reason whatsoever, be the cause of a fire. Loose ammeter stud nuts, failed insulators, high aftermarket loads incorrectly connected at the battery, lack of maintenance, abuse at the ammeter terminal connections likely have led to enough resistance and heat build up to burn things. On that, I must take the word of others, in my experience dating back to my time at the dealers, wrenched on many Chrysler vehicles then and now, never saw the “spontaneous combustion” of one these passenger car ammeters. There are other issues in the stock charging system that have caused problems since day one.

There is nothing within “the workings of the ammeter”, in good condition, good connections, when operating within its design limits, can “cause” heat build-up, simple stout brass bus. There are no heat generating internal shunts or shunt resistors.

Statistically? Statistically, wheels fall off cars every day because someone didn’t torque the lug nuts, do you blame the wheel? Tires blow out every day because air pressures are not maintained or their design loads have been exceeded, blame the tire? And vehicle electrical fires happen every day caused by poorly maintained or abused electrical systems, totally unrelated to 50+ year old cars, ammeter or not.

Even now, any serious real-time monitoring of DC circuits in any kind of vehicle, includes the use of ammeters in some form. Monitoring the charging system health in real-time with a voltmeter alone, provides little more info than an idiot lamp.

I carry fire extinguishers in all my cars as well, not because I fear my electrical systems. I know and understand the current state of my electrical systems inside and out, ammeter and all. More concerned with the failure of some pressurized fuel handling component, i.e., a failed needle and seat.

The primary reason for any automotive production change is unit cost period. If you imply that the move away from passenger car ammeters back then was for any other reason, you would be mistaken.

For those not seeing the inaccurate facts stated that article, I’ve highlighted a few of the more blatant factually inaccurate statements in that one paragraph posted above.

ONCE AGAIN, an EXCELLENT dissertation and explanation, especially the reference to the "idiot lamp". Its somewhat humorous, at least to me, that the persons professing no or limited knowledge of electrical systems ( #s 10, 13,14), seem to profess a complete understanding of the issue. If one wants to utilize an ammeter to monitor the charging system current...great....likewise, if one wants to use a volt meter to monitor system voltage (not current flow) as the two components (voltage / current) are somewhat mutually exclusive but related.....also great.
This subject is approaching the 50th iteration.....surely, there cannot be any more "my way vs your way" variations left to discuss....but, maybe not.... BTW....EFI systems are not typical high current consumers nor are the fuel pressure pumps, it's usually the added electrical requirements of the cooling system fans. Just my opinion of course.
BOB RENTON
 
I still don't see the argument for an ammeter. I am not saying the don't work or can't work or that every car with one will catch fire but I am saying its possible. Sure, lots of things are possible, but this is something behind the dash which is not easily inspected or cared for, thus it receives little to no maintenance over its life and therefore is prone to issues. Yes, you can clean it up, make sure everything is good, etc. but we all know that MANY classic car owners do not work on their own cars, they shop it out and unless they specifically ask for this issue to be looked at, dealt with AND the "mechanic" knows what they hell they are doing, in many cases it is not getting done. Therefore there remains a percentage of cars (probably a relatively high percentage) that may have an impending problem.

So with all this said why even risk it when you don't have to? I just don't see where the hate for the volt meter (or perhaps the love for the ammeter) is coming from. If this is just an issue of principle in which some want to attempt to expel the "myth" that ammeter spontaneously combust, I get that to a point but not with the amount of emotion this subject seems to illicit.

This should be about truth and reality and to that point I would offer this (relative to vintage cars);

- do ammeters work? yes
- can ammeters be made safe? yes, for a while (depending upon use, corrosion, etc.)
- are ammeters a "potential" problem? depends on the car/electrical system
- is a volt meter safer than an ammeter? not necessarily if both systems are connected correctly and are in good repair but an ammeter is more likely (than a VM) to be a failure point due to how it interacts with the electrical system

So if you know your electrical system and it is in good shop with clean terminals, etc. then go on with your bad self and run the ammeter. However if you don't know your electrical system, have no desire or ability to work on your car yourself and do not want to take the risk and you want to monitor your charging system then install a VM.... Pretty simple.
 
I still don't see the argument for an ammeter. I am not saying the don't work or can't work or that every car with one will catch fire but I am saying its possible. Sure, lots of things are possible, but this is something behind the dash which is not easily inspected or cared for, thus it receives little to no maintenance over its life and therefore is prone to issues. Yes, you can clean it up, make sure everything is good, etc. but we all know that MANY classic car owners do not work on their own cars, they shop it out and unless they specifically ask for this issue to be looked at, dealt with AND the "mechanic" knows what they hell they are doing, in many cases it is not getting done. Therefore there remains a percentage of cars (probably a relatively high percentage) that may have an impending problem.

So with all this said why even risk it when you don't have to? I just don't see where the hate for the volt meter (or perhaps the love for the ammeter) is coming from. If this is just an issue of principle in which some want to attempt to expel the "myth" that ammeter spontaneously combust, I get that to a point but not with the amount of emotion this subject seems to illicit.

This should be about truth and reality and to that point I would offer this (relative to vintage cars);

- do ammeters work? yes
- can ammeters be made safe? yes, for a while (depending upon use, corrosion, etc.)
- are ammeters a "potential" problem? depends on the car/electrical system
- is a volt meter safer than an ammeter? not necessarily if both systems are connected correctly and are in good repair but an ammeter is more likely (than a VM) to be a failure point due to how it interacts with the electrical system

So if you know your electrical system and it is in good shop with clean terminals, etc. then go on with your bad self and run the ammeter. However if you don't know your electrical system, have no desire or ability to work on your car yourself and do not want to take the risk and you want to monitor your charging system then install a VM.... Pretty simple.

Run what you want, it's your car. my 2 cents.

To say that an ammeter has never caused an issue in a car... really? They have and will always have that potential. Is the bulkhead a bigger issue along with a less than stellar charge path, yep. The fact that it's not a normal service item and is difficult to service in many cases doesn't help the deterioration issue of insulators and connections.

Pick your parts, pay your money.
 
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