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For the voltmeter conversion crowd

Ammeters don't really need any "maintenance" to speak of, and most old Chrysler ammeters are actually very sturdy units that can handle quite a bit of current. In my opinion, the problem with our old cars is not the ammeters, but more so the design of the bulkhead connectors and the wiring size. Neither were designed for large additional loads since our old cars, when originally built, had 35 amp alternators and few electrical loads.

Adding all kinds of things like powerful stereos, fuel pumps, electric fans, etc. require redesigning the system to work properly. Many people don't understand and don't respect the need for a well designed electrical system. Slapping a big alternator on a car to handle large loads is a recipe for disaster, and then fires caused by that are often blamed on the "Ammeter".

A car can be made to run well and safely with an ammeter (I chose to redesign my system with a voltage gauge, and that's fine too). Regardless, if you are going to add electrical loads to an old car, be sure you truly understand what you are doing.

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Being thruth the weakest point is the bulkhead, is not true ammeter don't need mantenience. THEY DO need a deep check. After 50 years of incorrect use and abuse of the electrical system, adding INCORRECTLY accesories on batt, hacking all the wiring, getting dust and rust on terminals, you can find ANYTHING on back of the ammeters. Just proceed with the check like you make mantenience on the rest of the car.

Ther are several threads showing pics of what you can find inside an ammeter on an abused ( electrically speaking ) car.

Electrical system on our 50 years car is the most underestimate area on them.
 
Bull crap All those stud loads will be pulled off the battery. Unless you have an upgraded wiring and weak links removed something has to give.

Yeah... right. I won't keep hitting my head against the wall to convince you. Try to understand how an ammeter works and what their readings means first and we can talk again after that.

Will try to help posting a link where I explain how and what their readings means. When you understand that, maybe will open your mind.

This is my first version... maybe my english back in the days was worst than latelly. Sorry

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,33574.0/all.html

This is a "cleaner" version trying to explain the charging system per original design

https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/poll-about-ammeter-reading.198930/page-3

You can check all the thread, but I'm going straight to the point since #55 reply.

I'm not trying to win a battle, but just proove what I made with success and sharing my experience. Nobody can deny my own experience. Like if I'm crazy. I just invite you on try it by yourself.

Is indeed what CHRYSLER made on dealers and on factory with highly optioned cars. I'm not inventing ANYTHING, just applying and maybe getting it better PROOVING also a higher output alt is posible with the correct proceedements.

Anybody can decide their own upgrades and jobs on their cars, but stop the myths and open your minds on what is posible to make still with stock gauges/system design... for those interested on keep it of course.
 
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Ok, one more, a little more drama, and some pissing of my own.

Now that’s interesting, I too, started my professional automotive career working my way up through the ranks at various large and small Chrysler dealers in the mid-seventies. Starting on the lube rack, PDI, parts, then master certified line tech before moving on to other brand dealers and owning/operating a high-end car stereo business, designing and installing high-end audio systems and accessories into high-end vehicles of all types. Far different experience at the Chrysler dealers back then it would appear, never saw one unexplained ammeter or ammeter connection failure until the failed attempt to construct them using plastic frames in the later seventies’ trucks. Delt with tons of bulkhead, ignition switch Molex, and single Molex engine harness disconnects in the charge output failures very early on. Preformed countless C-body recalls adding a parallel wire run around the bulkhead charge output Packard connection, alternator output stud to fuse box. Have read many internal Chrysler docs, TSBs, and such, back then and over the years, if the issue is as you have described here, would think there would have been a rather large paper trail of some kind created to back that up.

As for the explained ammeter connection failures I saw back then. comebacks, most all electrical comebacks of others always seemed to be routed my way, being raised by an EE, even then, electrical was never the mystery others made it out to be. Some other tech would leave the nuts loose or crank them down so tight it would crush the insulators during some previous dash service. Never saw any issues with connections that were untouched from the factory and had no added aftermarket loads connected directly at the battery.

By far, most explained charge system connection failures were caused by added accessories at the battery. Until Chrysler beefed up the fleet/police production charging systems (including by-passing the bulkhead connectors), most failures I saw were police cars shortly after all their radios/lights were installed.


So-called article “facts”, as pertaining to a completely stock healthy well maintained ’60-‘70s Chrysler passenger car charging system as originally designed and while the vehicle is in normal operation, no modifications.

“the fact that all system current has to flow through the ammeter for it to work”

Misleading, the ammeter does not require any current to “work”. Only battery charging/discharging current should be flowing through the ammeter while the vehicle is in operation, regardless of load demand. The only conditions the ammeter will register “full system current” is when the vehicle is not in use, should be no system current flowing at that time, or key on and engine not running. Once more, the stock ammeter can more than handle the stock system loads without alternator output.

As the wiring ages, its electrical resistance increases”

Not factual, the electrical properties of a given conductor will not simply change over time. Corrosion, oxidation at terminals because of excessive over-exposure to moisture, over time causes resistance build up. Insulation break-down is due to excessive heat and/or ultra-violet light over exposure, general abuse, not simply due to age. There is plenty of well-preserved original 50+ year-old wiring in good condition safely in use today.

“As the output of the alternator increases, so does the amount of current going through the ammeter”

Absolutely not factual, again only battery charge/discharge current should flow through the ammeter while in operation. Healthy battery, that is almost 0 amps of current. All factory loads are on the alternator side of the ammeter at splice 1, or some cases, directly connected to the alternator ammeter stud. As the vehicle/system loads vary, the alternator output increases/decreases to cover the demand, all on the alternator side of the ammeter, this vehicle /system current does not flow through the ammeter at all on a healthy stock Chrysler charging system. All vehicle loads are to be on the alternator side of the ammeter originally as designed. Any loads on the battery side of the ammeter will source its power needs from the alternator through the ammeter and related connections because the alternator is the main power source when in operation, not the battery. This added current at the battery is registered as false charging current on ammeter and puts the ammeter and related connections well outside of its original design limits.

Both create additional heat, often in the workings of the ammeter. It also doesn't help when carmakers use shunts to tune the ammeters, adding even more heat right at the gauge”

Again, not factual, shunts to tune ammeters? There are no shunts or shunt resisters, or any other heat generating components/devices, that will add “more heat”, within a Chrysler passenger car ammeter from this era, flat out wrong. Any heat damage at the ammeter is a result of excessive resistance at the ammeter studs likely cause by excessive current or abuse. There are no “workings” in the ammeter, simple solid brass buss, a permanent magnet. Needle responds to changes in the magnetic field as influenced by current flow though the buss.


Further on the article, it directly conflates the later plastic framed truck ammeters failures with the original earlier passenger car construction, makes no sense whatsoever. At lease the Mad Electrical article specifically describes their remedy as targeting the later truck plastic framed ammeter melting failures. It appears it is some readers of that article that conflate the two completely different ammeter designs.


These original passenger car ammeters from this time do not simply “give up the ghost” or “spontaneously combust” for no reason whatsoever. You want to modify your electrical system to what you believe will better handle modern accessories/loads, not comfortable with or simply don’t like the higher current potential in the dash or simply because that’s how it’s done today. I get it, go for it. If you are going to write an article, or post on a forum, to promote your modification, at least get your facts straight.

ONCE AGAIN A VERY THOROUGHLY EXPLAINED DISSERTATION. WELL THOUGH OUT AND PRESENTED. The "rebuttal" in #s 37 & 39 are totally incorrect with assumptions presented not in evidence or substantiated . But perhaps I should conduct a "class" in electrical design fundamentals, using actual calculations to explain the differences and the why's and wherefore's. Anyway....and the hits just keep on comming...just my opinion of course.
BOB RENTON
 
Being thruth the weakest point is the bulkhead, is not true ammeter don't need mantenience. THEY DO need a deep check. After 50 years of incorrect use and abuse of the electrical system, adding INCORRECTLY accesories on batt, hacking all the wiring, getting dust and rust on terminals, you can find ANYTHING on back of the ammeters. Just proceed with the check like you make mantenience on the rest of the car.

Ther are several threads showing pics of what you can find inside an ammeter on an abused ( electrically speaking ) car.

Electrical system on our 50 years car is the most underestimate area on them.
Uh, OK. But I wouldn't call checking ammeter connections for incorrect wiring and add-ons as "maintenance". Those would be added flaws by someone that does not understand how these systems work. Once a system is designed and working properly, I'll stick by my comment that "ammenters don't really need any "maintenance" to speak of".
 
Call it on any way you want, but why don't check it at least? Would you trust on a 30, 40 years old tire which looks to be perfect?
 
It appears that this iteration of the ammeter vs volt meter vs etal (wiring, bulkhead connectors, wiring age, connections in general, etc.), is exactly like a bovine and its digestive system, aka "chewing its kud". I guess the "my way is better than your way" syndrome (in which "my way is ALWAYS better than your way") sprinkled with unrelated, pointless analogies (oil pump failures and old tires) will continue adinfinitum. Oh well, I'll just continue to listen and, perhaps, learn something (?)......maybe....
BOB RENTON
 
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Call it on any way you want, but why don't check it at least? Would you trust on a 30, 40 years old tire which looks to be perfect?
:BangHead: (We need a face palm emoticon) You are either missing my point or just being argumentative.

When I got my 70 I tore it all apart and fixed the stupid wiring stuff that had happened to it over the years. OF COURSE if you buy an old car you should check lots of safety related things, especially wiring and electrical. But I don't now crawl under my dash and "maintain" my ammeter when I change my oil! The fact remains that an ammeter gauge is an extremely reliable gauge that needs essentially no maintenance.

The point of this thread is discussing if ammeters are dangerous or not. I will stick with my comments that they are not, IF AND ONLY IF THEY ARE PROPERLY WIRED AND THE REST OF THE SYSTEM IS PROPERLY DESIGNED.
 
The ammeter in my ‘68 Satellite wagon was getting hot... I just removed the ring terminal from one side, and put both on the other. Bypassed it. But the spade connector at the bulkhead was designed for one thing. Ease of assembly on the production line. It’s a bad design, that long term exposure to heat and moisture becomes a resistance. It gets hot, and melts the connector.
 
This guy is in love with me! Definitely! LOL

Wiyh regard to #46, perhaps, going thru life, with obtuse reasoning and singular personal references to unrelated and uncalculated examples is OK in some parts of the world but, in the real world, documentation with supporting calculations is the best way to present an argument and to show its validity.
BOB RENTON
 
:BangHead: (We need a face palm emoticon) You are either missing my point or just being argumentative.

When I got my 70 I tore it all apart and fixed the stupid wiring stuff that had happened to it over the years. OF COURSE if you buy an old car you should check lots of safety related things, especially wiring and electrical. But I don't now crawl under my dash and "maintain" my ammeter when I change my oil! The fact remains that an ammeter gauge is an extremely reliable gauge that needs essentially no maintenance.

The point of this thread is discussing if ammeters are dangerous or not. I will stick with my comments that they are not, IF AND ONLY IF THEY ARE PROPERLY WIRED AND THE REST OF THE SYSTEM IS PROPERLY DESIGNED.

Maybe we are both missing our points to each one LOL. I'm totally agreed, but never said you will check/mantenience the ammeter when changing oil. The metaphore is related to when we service/mantenience some area of the car we take care of everything. But most of the time we underestimate the electrical, most of the times due unknowledgement, and that's when problems arrive because the car still keeps working, untill is late. That's when abuses floats on and then everybody blame to the ammeter, but forgett all the bad jobs made previously.

Is like a population which never pay taxes and then you go to the hospital there is no medicines... then we blame to the hospital!
 
Someone should make up a poll:
A. Do you like Ammeters
B. Do you like Volt Meters
C. Are you totally confused after reading this thread
 
BTW Need to let you know I'm not the only "mad" guy about this ( so that could mean I'm not the only "ignorant" ? ). You can check Mattax posts at FABO, Moparts etc... he even got his own website about this. This without make mention about the OP on this thread and a lot of good personal experiences from ppl who actually upgraded/refreshed their own cars with success on this specific topic with the info provided and keeping stock ammeters.

Many others that I can't count and list here or any other board.
 
Someone should make up a poll:
A. Do you like Ammeters
B. Do you like Volt Meters
C. Are you totally confused after reading this thread

A... HELL definitelly yes
B.. Yes, but wouldn't replace the amm for it, just will make them work together if really needed or wished
C... well, Not myself LOL
 
Uh, OK. But I wouldn't call checking ammeter connections for incorrect wiring and add-ons as "maintenance". Those would be added flaws by someone that does not understand how these systems work. Once a system is designed and working properly, I'll stick by my comment that "ammenters don't really need any "maintenance" to speak of".
I don’t think anyone is suggesting here a safe healthy reliable electrical system/ammeter requires “scheduled” maintenance per se. When I refer to “well-maintained” in these electrical discussions, simply meaning maintaining the electrical system in a known good operating condition as time passes. Or as the English say, “in good nick”. As you mention, most of these survivors today have been touched by a lot of folks since they left the factory. Many of those so-called “technicians”, or owners. then and now, had/have no business touching electrical. Was true at the dealers back then too, some of those “well-seasoned” old-timers spoke of “juice”, sometimes as if it would run out on the floor if a wire was cut. Know and understand the state of your electrical system always, modified or stock.
There is nothing about these cars that was designed to last anywhere near 50+ years, some electrical upkeep is to be expected.
 
I’ve found the bulkhead connector to be more problematic. As it ages it corrodes and the connection becomes weak, sometimes melting the plastic. The police package addressed this with a thru grommet and no firewall disconnect.
Hello! I noted your reply, with interest.. makes sense! So, where does one find/purchase a Police-package, bulk-head connector? Thanks!
 
Hello! I noted your reply, with interest.. makes sense! So, where does one find/purchase a Police-package, bulk-head connector? Thanks!
I imagine that would be hard to find. NOS or used for OG. You could just make your own. At the same time jump up to 10 gauge wire, drill thru the firewall and use a grommet.

btw... the police package eliminated the bulkhead connector for the alternator to ammeter wire. It’s straight thru.
 
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I imagine that would be hard to find. NOS or used for OG. You could just make your own. At the same time jump up to 10 gauge wire, drill thru the firewall and use a grommet.


Is one of the upgrades I suggest. Click on the link I posted on one of my replies from dodgecharger.com
 
Let’s start with this paragraph


"It's not that ammeters didn't once have their place. In the days of low-output generators and relatively untaxed electrical systems, the ammeter - a device that monitors the electrical system's current and relays whether the system is charging or discharging - arguably does a better job of alerting the driver to faults in the system than a voltmeter. But the ammeter also had its faults, primarily arising from the fact that all system current has to flow through the ammeter for it to work. That means, at its most basic, wiring from the generator or alternator, through a bulkhead connector, through the alternator, on to feed the rest of the electrical system, back through the bulkhead connector, and back to the battery. As the wiring ages, its electrical resistance increases. As the output of the alternator increases, so does the amount of current going through the ammeter. Both create additional heat, often in the workings of the ammeter. It also doesn't help when carmakers use shunts to tune the ammeters, adding even more heat right at the gauge. At some point, it proves too much for the ammeter, and when it gives up the ghost, it takes the car's entire electrical system down with it."
Hi
Not entirely accurate........Not all the current flows through the ammeter...99+% flows through the shunt in most cases.
Not all wire gains resistance as it ages...that depends on the composition and quality of the wire...I have worked on systems over 100 years old and the wire is just as good as when built.
It does help when makers use shunts, it is the most efficient way to make a high current meter.
The biggest problem in old equipment is the connection point oxidation. Which generates heat through higher than normal resistance.
If you have any worries about the shunt on your ammeter put the shunt under the hood mounted properly and run two small wires to the meter....done deal.
 
Hi
Not entirely accurate........Not all the current flows through the ammeter...99+% flows through the shunt in most cases.
Not all wire gains resistance as it ages...that depends on the composition and quality of the wire...I have worked on systems over 100 years old and the wire is just as good as when built.
It does help when makers use shunts, it is the most efficient way to make a high current meter.
The biggest problem in old equipment is the connection point oxidation. Which generates heat through higher than normal resistance.
If you have any worries about the shunt on your ammeter put the shunt under the hood mounted properly and run two small wires to the meter....done deal.

What shunt? Up to 74/75 allmost all ammeters where full load Without any shunt. The shunted ammeters began on earliers 70s on C bodies, 75 on B and 76 on A bodies... then of course the rest which were new bodies... F, M etc... And all shunts run down the hood from factory.

Dunno on trucks.

The shunted systems used a diff ammeter with a coil mounted inside to move the needlee, but the full load don't get this coil. Just the internal brass path and a magnet.
 
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