Headers and Mini Starters

[Ghoste]

Ive been looking online and all I find is older information. Looking for actual experiences from people with a 440 and a four speed with a Lakewood bellhousing over a 143 tooth flywheel and the 11 inch clutch and headers in a 69 B-body. What is a header and starter combination that actually works? A little frustrated here because in 50 years, there is no way I am the first guy to have this issue. Did they stop making proper headers for this combination? How was it done before?
Experiences with 340 A body cars are no use to me and dont bother with suggestions of how great the Dakota starter fits. I have a 69 Charger with the big flywheel and Hedman headers (yes they are a poor fitting brand) and I am telling you, the clever fits all with no problem mini starter absolutely does NOT fit. Not even close. Junkyard one, NAPA one, Chrysler one, Mancini. The mini starter DOES NOT FIT THIS COMBINATION.
Robbmc says theirs "usually" does with "some" TTI headers. That is a lot of money to dish out for usually and some so that is why I am looking for apple to apple experiences.

 

[33 IMP]

All i can do is tell my story. I have an ancient set of two inch hooker adjustables (with a 727 however) and like you, the mini starter, genuine mopar performance, would not fit. The ancient, giant heavy original gear reduction starter fits fine. The headers are so old there were no mini starters at the time, and a header tube goes right thru the space where a mini needs to be.

 

[WP29440SE]

I am using heddman long tube headers on my 440. I had to ding one tube to keep them from touching the gear reduction starter, (FYI, there are 2 different lengths of factory starters) I bought a Dakota/ram mini starter off eBay , put it on with room to spare. this is with a 727, but the starter is in the same spot. the mini starter fits with my headers and is nowhere near my original dent. maybe you have an older set of headers, although mine are at least 10 years old.

 

[Daves69]

If you got to TTI site, in their footnotes, they direct the 11" 143 user to a supplier of a "mini-er" starter......

http://www.robbmcperformance.com/products/mopar_starter.html

 

[moparedtn]

I am using heddman long tube headers on my 440. I had to ding one tube to keep them from touching the gear reduction starter, (FYI, there are 2 different lengths of factory starters) I bought a Dakota/ram mini starter off eBay , put it on with room to spare.

Exactly what I have. Hedmans and the "Dakota" starter (it's actually the same starter Dodge used on their V6 and V8 engines those years, same animal). A little judicious use of a sledge on one tube and it all fits fine with the 4 speed and 143/11".
If you buy a reman one at one of the box stores, you get a lifetime warranty on it, so if it dies a horrible heat death,
no worries - and they're pretty cheap, too.
Knock wood, mine has been on for a decade now, no worries. Spins the 440 over easily. No need in high dollar
cute little starters.

 

[gkent]

BB, lakewood scattershield, 143 tooth flywheel, mini starter and Doug's 252 headers. No issues with clearance whatsoever. I can even pull or install the starter without removing a single header nut or bolt.

 

[Ghoste]

I am telling you, the Dakota starter absolutely, in no way, not even close, comes to fitting. DOES NOT FIT WHATSOEVER!!!!!! On mine. I don't know why it does yours but it does NOT fit mine. Does NOT. And that includes after beating the living daulights out of the header tube. It is crushed to the point of uselessness now and it just barely fits. Maybe this set of Hedman headers are different? I saw the not from TTI but could not get through to them, it was someone at Robbmc who told me it usually fits with some TTI headers.
I dont know. Im at my wits end here until I can get a little ffedback from someone running TTI and Robbmc stuff I guess. I appreciate the help though guys.

 

[gkent]

Where in Ontario are you?

 

[hunt2elk]

I would be willing to bet the headers you have are the problem. I have used 1 7/8" TTI's on several big block 4-speed B-bodies with no starter clearance issues. Also heard good things about the Dougs.

 

[Mr Roadrunner]

I have TTI 2” primary tube headers going on my 68 Road Runner. The car is apart for restoration, but I have the engine/trans, K-frame, and front suspension assembled on a stand ready to install. I do have Edelbrock heads, but I don’t think this will make a difference. A factory starter would “fit” but was basically touching a tube. A mini starter would not fit, no way, no how, as you stated. TTI said a robmac is the only starter that will fit. I patiently waited for a rebuilt one off their website. It does fit, and is indexable. I have not had this setup installed in the body yet, but no problems so far. I too have a 11” clutch setup. Should be same as yours.

 

[WP29440SE]

I am telling you, the Dakota starter absolutely, in no way, not even close, comes to fitting. DOES NOT FIT WHATSOEVER!!!!!! On mine. I don't know why it does yours but it does NOT fit mine. Does NOT. And that includes after beating the living daulights out of the header tube. It is crushed to the point of uselessness now and it just barely fits. Maybe this set of Hedman headers are different? I saw the not from TTI but could not get through to them, it was someone at Robbmc who told me it usually fits with some TTI headers.
I dont know. Im at my wits end here until I can get a little ffedback from someone running TTI and Robbmc stuff I guess. I appreciate the help though guys.

are you sure they are hedmans? that is strange that mine fit and yours do not. my headers actually fit very well only needing a ding to keep them off the steering box and a light one for the original starter I had on there.

 

[Ghoste]

I am sure they are Hedman but based on the photos from Mr Roadrunner I think I will take the plunge and go with TTI's and a Robbmc.
Thanks everybody.

 

[33 IMP]

Simple question, and i don't mean to insult you, but... have you tried an old full size starter?

 

[Justin Smith]

I have TTI headers on my Hemi, do any of you wrap the headers with header wrap by the starter? also do y'all wrap the starter in a heat wrap to keep it cool? I have a heat wrap around my starter (came with car) and I reckon since it had fluids on it from past usage, it seem to have gotten hot and got my starter smoking. the starter didn't appear to be "continuously engaged" while engine was running, so I don't think the starter is a entire issue but the starter did get super hot, over 200 degrees according to my digital thermometer tool. Have any of you had similar experience with this?

Justin

 

[myk r sanchez]

I was told by Doug's that wrapping their headers would void their warranty, so I didn't do it. Besides, they said the ceramic coating would keep the temps down where I need them to be. They suggested wrapping the starter or building a heat shield but I didnt do that either. My mini starter has been going on five years in that environment so I hope its ok...

 

[MoparLeo]

Most header manufacturers void the finish warranty with the use of wraps. But it is not really unusual to have total parts compatibility when using different brands of parts on the same engine. This engine block, those heads, that header brand, that scatter shield , etc... Only way to assure compatibility is for the header manufacturer to anticipate all the different possible parts combinations and try to accomdate . Unlikely as there are so many variables. Common sense. Something will have to be compromised. Has been happening as long as people have been modifying their cars. Who do you want to blame for a part designed for the car not fitting because it has to fit with other "non-factory parts"?

 

[1967coronet]

I agree with 33 imp , just install a full size starter. I run one with headers, I have a heat wrap on the starter , works fine.
Re place the section of tube you have been banging on.
Even the old cheap cyclone headers back in the 70s would fit with the full size starter.
You may have to lossen the bolts and waste a gasket but that's about the extent of it

 

[padam]

I know this is an old thread, but if anyone can give me a little more info I’d really appreciate it.

I’m running a Lakewood bellhousing, 143 tooth flywheel and mini starter on my 413.
From posts above it looks like Doug’s 252 headers will work. Only problem is that seems to be old part number. The current part number is D452.
Can anyone confirm that these are the same?

 

[khryslerkid]

I know this is an old thread, but if anyone can give me a little more info I’d really appreciate it.

I’m running a Lakewood bellhousing, 143 tooth flywheel and mini starter on my 413.
From posts above it looks like Doug’s 252 headers will work. Only problem is that seems to be old part number. The current part number is D452.
Can anyone confirm that these are the same?

I cant confirm they are the same but I'm running the D452 on my 440 in my '62 Dodge. Great fit. Mini starter required. The D452 is what you want for the RB block. I also have the 727 pushbutton.

 

[gkent]

D452's ... but those are for b & e bodies.

That bellhousing will need a bit of clearancing on the right side or you can bash the **** out of the header - your call.

Once the headers are installed the mini starter can be swapped in and out without loosening the headers !!