HELP! Restoration In's and Out's

[Sebringcharlie]

I have contacted a local restoration company to do the work on my 1972 Satellite Sebring. I have seen this company often at Moparfest, and in other locations in the area. They have been in business for a long time (30 years?), so I assume that they know what they are doing and talking about. I am not mechanically inclined.

So the owner comes out, has a look at the car and I asked if it could be restored, and a very general ballpark of the estimate to get it up and running. At the time, he tells me probably around 12K if there isn't too much that pops up during the process.

I talk to him about the parts we would need, and how I could save myself as much as possible. I start sourcing parts myself. I've picked up several items already. He encouraged me to purchase new AMD rear quarter skins, trunk extensions, and wheel well.

He's planning to come get the car and tells me that while he's working on it, he'd want a "small monthly payment". It's not a rush project, so no problems. He's given me a more detailed quote, over the phone, that's well over 12K, and doesn't include finishing the undercarriage, installation of wiring or motor or mechanicals, or any parts costs. It includes:
70 hours of sheet metal installation
fitting of new doors and fenders
cut out floors, install new ones, blast engine compartment, rocker panels, etc
glass re+re
welding/paint/consumables
160 hours body work and paint

He tells me I need new doors because the ones on there have already been worked, and it would be cheaper to replace them than re-do them. He tells me the doors themselves will take about 40hours of work. The doors have NO visible rust on the outside, and when I took the panels off on the inside, only about 2" of the very bottom seam has some rust, but I couldn't poke a screwdriver through the door, so it may just be surface rust. I can't see how even patching the entire bottom of the door (which isn't required IMO), would take an experienced body person 40 hours.
It doesn't include new brake lines, or getting existing brakes running; interior seat covers/installation, checking mechanicals in transmission and rear end, purchase or installation of engine/rad/components, etc etc.

So I have to ask about these things and I get "I could do that, I guess". Then I ask when he expects the car to be finished. He's allotting about 10 months. I'm fine with that timeline. I ask about this small payment he wants each month, and he tells me he would need about 2000.00. CASH. In my world, that's not a small payment. That's more than double my mortgage payment!! Am I offbase here? I tend to freak out about money, so I need to know if this is unreasonable. And I am concerned about paying 2K a month for 10 months (20K), and then having to ask about the mechanicals, or having to source my own parts in addition to that. I would have thought for 20K, the car would be done top to bottom, and my input would only be needed to determine final details/colour/etc.

With other types of service providers, you don't provide the entire fee over the course of the work, you pay at the end of the work period when the finished product is produced. Is this different with auto restoration? Can someone please tell me what exactly I should be expecting from my restoration process, because this is feeling wrong to me. I'm located in Waterloo Ontario Canada, and here's what my car looks like right now...

http://sdrv.ms/12KhHT5

 

[djais1801]

I think there are several questions you need to ask yourself..is this a numbers matching big block car? does this car represent sentimental value to you, or the car you wanted as a kid?
I myself have a 71 RR Clone, and it is a 5 foot car for sure...but I am only enjoying it for what it is, not sinking too much into it (even though I replaced a bad engine and rear center section)lol..
I know resale is never gonna be a winfall, so do you want to spend $20g's + another 5g's for what isn't covered...when you could probably save up for 2 years or so and purchase a true RR or maybe spend $15g+ for a good driver quality satellite..
It is easy to let a project get away from you...especially if you're not technically inclined to verify whether they're pulling the wool over your eyes. As I myself do not have the gift of wrenching...i'd break more than i'd fix.
Lastly, if this is the route you're going...ask for references of customers that have finished projects
Good luck!

 

[Sebringcharlie]

This is merely a fun driver car, in tribute of my dad who left it to me. It was never supposed to have cost this much. I want things done right, but not necessarily the most expensive way.

 

[djais1801]

This is merely a fun driver car, in tribute of my dad who left it to me. It was never supposed to have cost this much. I want things done right, but not necessarily the most expensive way.

Did you already start the process with him...or are you just feeling things out before you pull the trigger? If not, ask for references...and it is true that until the paint is off you aren't gonna know what you're in store for...i'd always gauge 15% more than what someone tells me..when there's unknown variables.

 

[Donny]

It's simple. Labor = Money, and Hours = Money. Why are you tying your house payment to the value of getting your car rebuilt? This isn't a cheap venture.

 

[Sebringcharlie]

"Why are you tying your house payment to the value of getting your car rebuilt? This isn't a cheap venture."

I had a figure of 15K in my head for this, so I guess the fact that it's going to cost almost double that, is a bit of a shock. I can purchase one already done for less than that, and I feel that even with 25k price tag, I won't be getting a dream car. I don't plan to live in it, but with that kind of a payment, I just might have to!

So I guess djais1801 said it right: I have some questions to ask myself.

Right now, he hasn't done a lick of work to the car, he's just hit me with this crazy payment plan and quote. The money part of this whole thing bothers me, but judging from your responses, this isn't unreasonable.

 

[BeastlyBirdie]

Ask yourself this-would I pay 20k for a perfect body 72 satellite? And then have to get an interior, engine, transmission, rear end, brakes, wiring, suspension, fuel system...to me, seems steep unless you are doing a show car. Especially if you are buying parts. Then again, I do everything on my cars and trucks, from brakes to machining to paint.

 

[ODZKing]

Well, I would agree with all that has been said here. I also understand the sentimental value of the car. I am VERY attached to both my cars. And if you are not comfortable doing some of the work yourself then you should expect to pay similar or said amounts.
I will give you an example. I purchased a rust free California car. That was around 9 grand. As I dug into it, I found many PO fixes that were, shall we say - half ***.
I should have been more attentive to details on it before I bought it, but it was like the car I bought new as a kid. And a gift from my dad. A story for another time.
I stripped it and had it painted. I got a deal because the place that did it, did the work in between regular collision jobs. BUT, it took 2 years. OK, because I had lots of parts to buy and restore.
That was 8500. I have AT LEAST 6000 into replacement parts and restoration between vinyl roof, seats, A/C, bumpers rechromed trim and so on. Lets just say another 1500 on things I hadn't planned on. That is 20,000 - and I have a painted shell which I have to put back together. Which my wife and I did over the period of 6 months working each night for about an hour each evening after dinner. While I had friends help me with items I could'nt do or do alone, the better part of it was me, and my wife.
After 3 years we have a finished ride that I was pleased with. I will need to replace more items but frankly I am out of money now so they will be taken care of as time and money allows.
You can see the finished car here: http://www.retrorarities.com/Our73ChargerSE/index.html
and the start to finish restoration process here: http://www.retrorarities.com/Resto2/index.html
and here: http://www.retrorarities.com/PartsResto/index.html.
So again, get references, check on everything before you pull the trigger, and expect it to take longer that they say ... it will. Get things in writing.
Is 2 grand a month a bit high, yes. But you remember the old saying: Pay me know or pay me later. Either way it is what it is.
Feel free to PM me with any questions, I'll be happy to tell you more of what we did.
Good luck.

 

[Sebringcharlie]

Ask yourself this-would I pay 20k for a perfect body 72 satellite? And then have to get an interior, engine, transmission, rear end, brakes, wiring, suspension, fuel system...to me, seems steep unless you are doing a show car. Especially if you are buying parts. Then again, I do everything on my cars and trucks, from brakes to machining to paint.

That's exactly what I thought. For a show car, yes! Totally 20-30K+ easily. But not for a solid driver that looks nice.

 

[djais1801]

I didn't realize that there's no engine in the car either...that's gonna be a few thousand as well. As I told you in my PM...what I got my car for and the condition its in from my photobucket link...I think that's your best route...or possibly look at an A-body

 

[greenmachine]

Charlie I know the feeling you are speaking of. Honestly, unless you absolutely love that car, I would sell it and put that money plus a chunk of what you have towards a big down payment towards a finished version what you want (have it checked thoroughly, there are a lot of sharks in the water). Unless you want to learn to do the work, paying someone else to turn wrenches on your car get spendy fast! Metal work, body/paint can eat up a budget quick!!! Ask me how I know... I love my car, but will have way more than any base coronet could ever sell for. Good luck!

 

[Dako]

Payments in increments is not uncommon.


If my 'napkin math' is right: $20,000 / 230 Labor hrs = $87hr?...or is some of that $20K used for materials? I wouldn't expect to see a detailed sheet down to the stir sticks and masking rolls, But I would expect a little explination.


Now this was a couple years ago, and when I had mine done I had stripped it down to a shell myself, but to do just body & paint...including undercoating, I paid:
$10,000 for labor (200 hrs @ $50hr)
$1,500 in materials (sanding/ blasting/ welding/ filler/ primer/ sealer/ paint/ clear coat/ etc.).

I paid:
$5,000 to start
$4,000 once it reached primer stage (about 6 months later)
$2,500 when I picked it up completed (3 months after primer stage)

I supplied all patch panels:
Passenger wheel opening
Passenger outer wheel house
Passenger lower rear quarter
Passenger lower rocker
Passenger trunk extension
Driver trunk extension
Driver lower rear quarter
Door hinge rebuild kits
* He made his own patch for the front driver fender (2"x2")

He also:
Rebuilt the door hinges
Removed/ reinstalled the windshield & trim, rear window & trim, all rain gutter trim
Repainted the rear end and springs once I bebuilt them
Removed/ repainted/ reinstalled the front suspension once I sand blasted & rebuilt it
Gave the car a courtesy 'once over' when I had it completely back together...touched up two chips he had put in it and three I had put in it; re-shot the top (there was a black smudge in the paint); then gave the whole car a final buff.

He welcomed periodic visits so I could get photos of the progress, and kept his word about not asking for money until he reached his pre-established points.

I wouldn't have had a problem with shorter increments in payments, but I would expect to see progress each month.

A good body guy has enough buffer built in that he can absorb 'some' unforseens and stay within the budget.

Oh, and I spoke with some of his previous customers (and inspecteded their cars) before making the deal.

 

[snakeyes]

[video]http://www.windycityautogallery.com/vehicle/4617646/1973-plymouth-roadrunner-frankfort-illinois-60423[/video][video]http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1973-Plymouth-Satellite-Sebring-Plus-Fully-Restored-Customized-408ci-Very-Nice-/131002029524?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item1e805455d4[/video]

 

[djais1801]

keep in mind that this is an asking price by a consigner..so the owner's bottom line is way below what the 3rd party is trying to acquire...also (no offense to 73+) the 71-72's generally command more $$ than the 73+ models..

[video]http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1973-Plymouth-Satellite-Sebring-Plus-Fully-Restored-Customized-408ci-Very-Nice-/131002029524?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item1e805455d4[/video]

 

[ODZKing]

No offense taken at all on my end. As greenmachine and dako have said, I have WAY more into my car(s) than they are worth, both of them! But I did it for ME, not because I wanted to make money.
This is what I wanted. It's important to me. I am proud of what we did and I will never sell it anyway.

 

[djais1801]

and they came out flawless! That's where things get cloudy...fiscal investment vs. blood pumping enjoyment-yours didn't look to have too much rust issues

No offense taken at all on my end. As greenmachine and dako have said, I have WAY more into my car(s) than they are worth, both of them! But I did it for ME, not because I wanted to make money.
This is what I wanted. It's important to me. I am proud of what we did and I will never sell it anyway.

 

[ODZKing]

Thank You. Yes, it's a catch 22 sort of. Pay a hefty price for a rust free car and less for body work OR pay nothing for the car and pay for body panels and replacement.
When asked, I can say (except for the original hood which I still have) every panel on that car is original.
Didn't mean to hijack. Sorry ... now back to ur regularly scheduled thread ...

 

[747mopar]

You said that you see them at allot of events "they might be a top notch shop= top notch price". Before you do anything else I'd do some shopping, 40 hrs on doors seams a bit much "I'm slow and I could do that". Go to car shows and ask around, if you see a cool car ask them, you'll likely find some people that are happy and get some tips. I have around $20,000 in mine but that's everything, motor, trans, brakes, sheetmetal, paint, etc but that's doing it all myself and it's not done with another couple grand to go. It's expensive P.S the door bottoms will likely need replaced or patched judging by the pic (rust usually starts from the inside so if you see it on the outside it's already threw).

 

[HYRDGOON]

Charlie I'm 25 minutes away from you in Guelph and may have a few suggestions as to a few different ways or people to approach this with. Instead of looking for a restoration specialist you may want to find someone who works more from home and can be somewhat of a "project manager" for you with contacts in the industry for the things they don't do (i.e. my guy does mechanical, electrical.. anything but bodywork but has bodywork contacts)

Also I have a motor coming out of my car as well as rad because I've purchased a crate... If you might be interested it puffs a bit of smoke so could use a valve job but is a strong runner and you can see it now running in the car/ take you for a spin if you're possible interested. It's a 383, 906 heads, edelbrock intake, Holley 680 carb.. I also have rims (15" Magnum 500's) and rubber if that's something you're looking for

Also let me know who the company you are referring to is (you can pm me name if you prefer)


Another tip is hit the local cruise nights in KW/Cambridge/Guelph and start meeting people... these places are great to get in contact with other car guys who may have a line on parts or reasonable people in the area (otherwise bored retired hot rodders) that do good work. If you're looking for a top notch Classic Car mechanic I can also put you onto my guy here.

Hope this will be some help,

Mike

 

[YY1]

We need pics.

4 years ago I was quoted $2500 each to hang a quarter (not including th price of the quarter), and $5000 for paint (which did include R&R windshields), but was with me stripping and dechroming. I was told $900 to fix a dented fender, and advised to find a straight one.

That's 10K+ for ONLY that specific work.

I have decided that for that same 10K, I will attempt to teach myself to hang patch panels and/or quarters on something that doesn't have the same sentitmental or monetary value, and to learn to paint.

I've also become MUCH more knwledgeable and thourough in my evaluation and inspection of potential automotive purchases.