HELP! Restoration In's and Out's

[Sebringcharlie]

Payments in increments is not uncommon.


If my 'napkin math' is right: $20,000 / 230 Labor hrs = $87hr?...or is some of that $20K used for materials? I wouldn't expect to see a detailed sheet down to the stir sticks and masking rolls, But I would expect a little explination.


Now this was a couple years ago, and when I had mine done I had stripped it down to a shell myself, but to do just body & paint...including undercoating, I paid:
$10,000 for labor (200 hrs @ $50hr)
$1,500 in materials (sanding/ blasting/ welding/ filler/ primer/ sealer/ paint/ clear coat/ etc.).

I paid:
$5,000 to start
$4,000 once it reached primer stage (about 6 months later)
$2,500 when I picked it up completed (3 months after primer stage)

I supplied all patch panels:
Passenger wheel opening
Passenger outer wheel house
Passenger lower rear quarter
Passenger lower rocker
Passenger trunk extension
Driver trunk extension
Driver lower rear quarter
Door hinge rebuild kits
* He made his own patch for the front driver fender (2"x2")

He also:
Rebuilt the door hinges
Removed/ reinstalled the windshield & trim, rear window & trim, all rain gutter trim
Repainted the rear end and springs once I bebuilt them
Removed/ repainted/ reinstalled the front suspension once I sand blasted & rebuilt it
Gave the car a courtesy 'once over' when I had it completely back together...touched up two chips he had put in it and three I had put in it; re-shot the top (there was a black smudge in the paint); then gave the whole car a final buff.

He welcomed periodic visits so I could get photos of the progress, and kept his word about not asking for money until he reached his pre-established points.

I wouldn't have had a problem with shorter increments in payments, but I would expect to see progress each month.

A good body guy has enough buffer built in that he can absorb 'some' unforseens and stay within the budget.

Oh, and I spoke with some of his previous customers (and inspecteded their cars) before making the deal.

The labor and consumables quote is almost identical to what you have listed! But then additional monies for interior assembly, glass re and re, any mechanical work, etc.

 

[Dako]

Excellent point about talking with others as to 'who had who' work on their cars. Talking with an owner of a car entered in a local show, I found the paint & body guy I used. Turns out he apprenticed under a (locally) well known car restorer, was half the rate...and his work shows he paid attention!

I had also found a guy who does good work, but he did not do metal (patching) work. Metal guys are getting harder to find.

"...The labor and consumables quote is almost identical to what you have listed! But then additional monies for interior assembly, glass re and re, any mechanical work, etc. "

If he is stripping it down to a shell, doing the body & paint, then re-assembling everything, the $20K is in the area of what I'd expect. I haven't even tried to account for the man hours I put into disassembly, cleaning, painting, rebuilding, re-upholstering, etc. Easily 200+ hrs. That's because I enjoyed doing it...much like someone who builds their own computer, or someone who makes things out of wood/ metal/ glass. As others indicated, it was a 'labor of love'...what it's worth in the end was vaguely considered since I was doing it for me and not a resale. By the time I am ready to pass it on I will have gotten my enjoyment (money) out of it.

I see it as no different than someone who happily spends money on: season tickets to something; smokes; drinks; cruise ships; elaborate vacations; gambling; etc. Each is done for personal enjoyment and/ or memories.

 

[djais1801]

Excellent points about talking with others as to 'who had who' work on their cars. That's actually how I found the paint & body guy I used...by talking with an owner of a car entered in a local show. Turns out he apprenticed under a (locally) well known car restorer...and his work shows he paid attention!

"...The labor and consumables quote is almost identical to what you have listed! But then additional monies for interior assembly, glass re and re, any mechanical work, etc. "

If he is stripping it down to a shell, doing the body & paint, then re-assembling everything, the $20K is in the area of what I'd expect. I haven't even tried to account for the man hours I put into disassembly, cleaning, painting, rebuilding, re-upholstering, etc. Easily 200+ hrs. That's because I enjoyed doing it...much like someone who builds their own computer, or someone who makes things out of wood/ metal/ glass. As others indicated, it was a 'labor of love'...what it's worth in the end was vaguely considered since I was doing it for me and not a resale. By the time I am ready to pass it on I will have gotten my enjoyment (money) out of it.

I see it as no different than someone who happily spends money on: season tickets to something; smokes; drinks; cruise ships; elaborate vacations; gambling; etc. Each is done for personal enjoyment and memories.

That is probably the best rationale to explain it

 

[flypaper]

if money or the amount you need to spend is your hang up
go sell it and buy a done car.
let someone else take it in the shorts.

i've seen some 71,2 nice drivers for under 10k
it isn't cheap to restore anything these days and
if it is cheap,the odds are that many shortcuts were taken to get there.
imo
20k is not out of line if the work is done right

you are questioning how long something takes like a door repair
when you have no hands on experiance yourself??

i do my own work and
i couldn't tell you how much time i've spent
making the parts you are replacing on your car fit to a acceptable
level.
so much time that
i'm glad i don't do it for a living because i would go hungry ..lol

 

[satman72]

Simple. You have two options. Buy the tools, learn how to do the work yourself. Or, option 2. pay someone else to do it. There really isn't any other option. Well there is option #3; sell the car and buy one ready to go.

Honestly, sounds like option #3 would be the best way to go for you.

 

[YY1]

For the record, there was a super clean and solid 71 SSP at Zepherhills last year advertized for 16K, then reduced to 13K.

Original tawney (brown-gold) paint, nearly perfect tan cloth interior, 318 a/c, no rust , no bondo, original low mile car.

It sold last week on ebay for (IIRC) 8.5K

 

[70redbee]

How about US Cartool? Don't they have some type of special where they do work for a certain amount and then give you the car back with the agreed upon work completed. If I remember correctly, it was a fair deal with happy customers. Just another thought, I hate to see people ripped off or overcharged.

 

[djais1801]

went on their website..it's $17,500 for a unibody rebuild, not including bodywork or paint

How about US Cartool? Don't they have some type of special where they do work for a certain amount and then give you the car back with the agreed upon work completed. If I remember correctly, it was a fair deal with happy customers. Just another thought, I hate to see people ripped off or overcharged.

 

[Donny]

How can anyone offer a cogent argument about doors taking too long at 40 hours if they've not done them before themselves and have first-hand knowledge on this subject?
Value is increased when others see your car done, then they decide to do their old car because values are ascending.

John Balow from MCR told me himself that when a customer has this (usually) fantasy number of what it will cost to restore their automobile, tell them to triple that number and that will will be the ballpark figure to work from.

 

[greenmachine]

Donny. Unless its a specialty I.E hemi car, low build numbers, etc., if you had a 25k budget to put a car together (again, just a nice rr or satellite, bee 383, 4spd, 727), and they were told to triple that figure to 75k, don't you think that would crush this hobby? You can buy perfect RR for 50-60k all day long. 75 gets you some hemi cars. I understand its always more expensive than we initially think, but triple the amount seems nuts. I know, the big money is in paying someone else to turn wrenches on your car, and that's where the money gets eaten up.

 

[SureGrip]

A good friend of mine used to own a small resto shop in MD. They turned out very nice work and did everything from drivers to show cars.

A basic resto will run $25-40k....depends on how much labor needs to go into it....it also depends on if you're really fixing problems the right way or just doing a sculpt-job on the body, calling it good enough. Sure $25k will get you a nice looking car when you pick it up from the shop....but I can almost guarantee the problem areas will re-surface within 10 years.

Hell, the cost of pain materials has nearly tripled in the last 10 years...an all-over paint job, done right, will cost between $5,000-$8,000.

Like others said, time is money. Shops can get away with charging $200-$400 for a brake pad replacement....something that takes less than 2 hours to do. If you have the ability to do it yourself, cost is maybe $100.

 

[67GTX440]

I was quoted 12K on my 67 GTX plus whatever else was needed upon paint removal with no delivery time commitment. It is amazing what you can find that has done to a car with a pretty slick looking body. Another quote was 18K and eight months. Car ended up needing outer wheel housings that needed to be fabricated and trunk extensions in addition to full length patch panels and front floor pans. I will have 50K plus in this car when done and I doubt it would bring 30K. I could have bought one someone else rotisserie restored for 30-35K. Car restoration is not for the faint of heart. I quit keeping a spreadsheet on costs because it became way too depressing. I someone tells you what they spent on their restoration, that generally includes the big ticket items. Add another 25-30 percent for miscellaneous stuff they completely forgot over a two to eight year process.

 

[idrivemopar]

I went down the same road with my 73 RR, thought I could just drop 10 to 15K and have a good car, but one thing led to another, and the cost skyrocketed up, spent that alone I just paint and bodywork, but I am rebuilding as a labor of love not to make money, so just remember, that you will never get out what you put in as far as money goes, so if you are going to keep it for a very long time, then go for it. Watch out for body shops that ask you if you want the 10 foot or 2 foot view, that's such a bs way of saying hey, it will cost you double for a nice paint job, a 2 foot view car can be done for the same price as a 10 foot view car.

 

[Sebringcharlie]

Thanks folks! I appreciate your opinions on this. Obviously I'm a newbie here, and price shock had me in it's grip pretty good.
I've taken what you've said (even if some of you were very blunt!), and spoken to my resto guy.
I misunderstood some things, and my guy neglected to tell me a few things. Turns out he's doing a really good job, he gives me options on some things, and even if he doesn't agree with my choice, we are working things out. He's super accommodating knowing I have a budget, but won't allow cutting of corners, or substandard work.
I'm happy to report that once he got the doors apart, he does feel they are fixable (in a reasonable amount of time), but he'd like to keep searching for nicer ones.
He's replaced the rear quarters and trunk extensions so far, and stripped the fenders, and repaired some nasty rocker panels (I'm not even sure how he did those, they were so bad!)
He gives me a breakdown on where my payments are going, parts or labor, and invites me to view the progress almost weekly.
We are working on an earlier finish date then anticipated and probably under 20K! Moparfest is the 3rd saturday in August, and he wants us there with the car. I will post some photos in the restorations in progress section.
Thanks again!