Help - won't start

[gottagettamopar]

Hi all
I just tried to fire up my Coronet after a couple of months doing various jobs.
I've rewired the engine bay, moved the battery to the trunk, added a relay for the starter and another for the GM HEI ignition module, put new plug leads on, replaced the steering box, rebuilt the heater box.....you get the idea.
After three hours of dead car yesterday I found the ignition wire had pushed out of the bulkhead connector.
Thing is, it's now coughing, burping and farting but it won't run. I think it's taken on too many of my characteristics!
I've checked TDC and the zero degree timing mark to ensure the rotor is pointing at #1.
I've checked fuel and spark and both are present and correct.
Engine is a 383 Magnum, carb is Holley 750 Vac sec, not sure about the dizzy but it's billet with no vacuum advance. I've set the reluctor gap at 0.008".
Any suggestions gratefully received.
Thanks

 

[miller]

Check your ballast resistor.
Past that, hate so say it, but with all the re-wiring you did, might need to at least go over all your start/ignition wiring, to make sure no probs.

It will try to start, but won't run?

 

[coloradodave]

And remember, the motor has to be on #1 on the COMPRESSION stroke and the rotor pointing to #1 tower on the distributor cap. Check by pulling #1 plug, putting your finger over the plug hole in the head and tapping motor over by jumping the starter relay until the compression pushes your finger off the hole. The timing mark should be approaching TDC. Continue tapping until the mark is about 10-15* BTDC. At that point the rotor should be pointing at the correct #1 tower in the cap. It gets confusing, but the mark comes up twice in a cycle: once correct and once 180* out.
If by chance, when you check, the rotor is pointing at #6 tower, you are 180* out. Just take off the distributor hold down clamp and lift the unit up until you can spin the rotor 180* and then set it back in place. You should be good to go. Good luck.
Like the humor too. Isn't getting older grand?

 

[jakal92]

Probably need to replace the plugs now. Sounds like they are fouled. Even if new, replace them. Cleaning never seems to work.

 

[nm9stheham]

Wipe under the distributor cap with a clean cotton cloth in case any moisture has accumulated and combined with the ignition dust that collects under there and is shorting the spark to the wrong cylinders.

Have you tried pouring a tablespoon of fresh gas down the carb throat to see if it will run well for a second or 2 with that?

Waht is your method to check for good spark and good fuel?

Did you clean the ignition wire contact that pushed out of the bulkhead? I assume you have no ballast anymore with the HEI system. Is this the 4 pin HEI module? Was the HEI running in the car before the last period of sitting and before the realy addition?

Do you have a voltmeter and if so, have you checked the voltage while cranking into the HEI box from your relay AND to the coil +? Also, check the +12 to the relay input that gets fed to the HEI module and coil+ by the relay. Try jumpering 12v direct form the battery to the relay coil + on the relay and then try. We need to figure out of the new relay wiring is right.

Just trying to eliminate simple stuff before moving on to the next steps......

 

[gottagettamopar]

Thanks for replies. Another day, another dollar, still not firing after eight hours of head scratching.
This is what I did today after reading the 4secondsflat tech info.
Got the engine to TDC, adjusted the dizzy to bang on #1 pin on the cap, adjusted the pick up terminal to spot on one of the reluctor paddles. This gives me dead on zero timing.
Then I slightly advanced the timing and tried to fire it up. Nothing apart from an occasional cough with continuous cranking.
Double checked the firing order.
Double checked the leads.
Had someone rotate the dizzy while I cranked it over and got a massive back fire through the carb when it was retarded.
Turned the dizzy 180 just in case and got a huge bang through the carb. Put it back.
Took the plugs out and cleaned them on a wire wheel. Regapped them.
Rechecked for spark, seems ok.
Voltage at the ignition switch wire is 1.3V. Voltage at coil is 9.4V.
Unwired the relay to make sure it wasn't faulty. No change.
Came home and drank a bottle of red in the garden. Now I've been trawling the web to see if I can find anything that maybe wrong.
I can find loads of articles on how to wire the module but none on how to set up the dizzy and pick up, specifically for an HEI conversion.
I have an amalgamation of parts, this is not a nicely packaged kit but it worked before I meddled with it.
It just sounds like the phasing or the timing is out. I have read that the wires from the module to the dizzy can make a difference so I might swap them over next week.
Any more suggestions? I'll give 'em all a go.
BTW, this thing has a big old cam in it. Not sure what it is but when it runs you can hear it kicking the lifters in the backside.

 

[nm9stheham]

Yes, it certainly sounds like the spark is way off and going to the wrong cylinder(s). Since it backfired badly with a simple retard in the timing, I would be inclined to think it is still off of timing or index. But there are other possiblilities....

--- You list the voltage out of the ign switch as 1.3V; do you mean 13V and where are you measuring this? And the 9.4V on the coil...is that on the coil + or - and where is the ign switch when you measure this? Cranking or in 'run'?

--- Weak spark. How are you testing for spark? It ought to be a good blue spark and be able to jump a gap of 1/4" or more in open air; don't just test on a spark plug in air; that test is meaningless. If you have a good, strong, long spark, then your HEI sounds right. Chekc this one acoupel fo wires and be sure you get a spark at regular intervals while cranking.

---- Ignition relay wiring: What wire do you have the new ignition relay wired to? If this is wired the way I think it is (and that is a BIG IF since we don't have a diagram of waht you have), you need to have both IGN1 and IGN2 wires from the ignition switch going to the relay; one is on in cranking and the other is on in 'run'. If you wire to just one, you will have ignition one mode but not the other. (But I don't think this is the issue.)

--- Bad vacuum leak or air dilution of charge: Are the carb secondaries full closed?

At this point it is kinda back to he basics: I would:
1) pull out the distributor to see if the gear is OK
2) with a valve cover off, check the valve timing on cylinders 1 and 6 while turning the crank through zero indicated timing oin the damper/pulley; one should be at exact overlap each time the crank passes zero. This will tell if the cam timing has jumped.
3) if the above looks any off, I would pull the timing cover and check the cam timing
4) put my hand or a rag over the primaries to choke it and see if that helps (with the backfires, maybe just use the rag!)
5) a little fresh gas down the carb and try

 

[sleepar]

180 degrees out.... real easy to do and fix use plenty of dielectric grease on everything electric that plugs in and contacts except contact points along of times things don't get good grounds or a ground can be on painted surface and just the threads aren't enough...

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Prime the carb and fuel pump with a the fuel line and small funnel.... be carefully not to spill fuel put some shop rags on the manifold... I try to never dump fuel down a carb to get a motor running or spray starting fluid or anything.... you're wipeing out the cylinder walls and oil and dry starting the motor. A primed carb will mist a little gas like it should when you crank it over.... spraying and dumping fuel in the motor can cause only problems and fire hazards it's a lazy hack way of just to get it to run

 

[coloradodave]

Don't want to be a dick (somebody's already got that job) but how about checking a few basics: #1 cylinder is on the driver's side front, followed by #3, #5 and #7 heading toward the firewall. #2 cylinder is on the passenger side front, followed by #4, #6 and #8 heading toward the firewall. The firing order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 in a COUNTER clockwise orientation on the distributor cap. I don't know your level of experience and certainly don't want to insult you. Just trying to help.

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Prime the carb and fuel pump with a the fuel line and small funnel.... be carefully not to spill fuel put some shop rags on the manifold... I try to never dump fuel down a carb to get a motor running or spray starting fluid or anything.... you're wipeing out the cylinder walls and oil and dry starting the motor. A primed carb will mist a little gas like it should when you crank it over.... spraying and dumping fuel in the motor can cause only problems and fire hazards it's a lazy hack way of just to get it to run

I think I've just been insulted, but I sure have gotten a lot of engines started with 'starting' fluid. I guess I'll just follow my elders' advice and 'consider the source'.

 

[nm9stheham]

I try to never dump fuel down a carb to get a motor running or spray starting fluid or anything.... you're wipeing out the cylinder walls and oil and dry starting the motor. A primed carb will mist a little gas like it should when you crank it over.... spraying and dumping fuel in the motor can cause only problems and fire hazards it's a lazy hack way of just to get it to run

A capful in the carb primaries won't wipe the cylinders dry and does the same a pumping the throttle before starting......Excessive pumping and flooding will do worse. The suggestion is made is to get a small amount of fresh gas into the engine to see if his gas is no longer good; at least in the US, regular gas starts breaking down in a couple of months.

Staring fluid is not a very good idea, I'll agree. It tends to ignite rather violently. I'll use a little on a lawn mower though....

 

[gottagettamopar]

Thanks for all replies again.
The fuel is definitely pumping through the carb and it's not that old. I've tried choking it, tickling it and pumping loads of gas down it.
I've got the cylinder positions, leads and firing order correct and double, triple, quadruple checked it and I also asked someone else to check it for me as a sanity check.
It's not 180 out.
I'll check the voltage measurements and report back.
I checked the spark by grounding a couple of plugs on the manifold. It's regular, bright blue/white and seems ok to me.
Secondaries are closed.
With regards to relay wiring, if you look at my profile, there is a previous thread where I posted a diagram under "GM HEI tidy up project". The yellow wire from the bulkhead connector C goes to the Mopar starter relay and the brown wire from connection D goes to the relay as a switched source. I'm pretty sure this should work as the relay has it's own 12v power source and the brown wire is switched from the ignition, which I have checked.
I'm thinking that I may have the dizzy wires crossed over on the magnetic pick up. I'm going to check that tomorrow.
Thanks
Les

 

[nm9stheham]

Sounds good on the gas. But checking spark across a spark plug gap in open air is not an adequate test; a weak spark can fire across that gap in open air, but not fire across that gap in a compressed fuel-air mixture. Please recheck the spark as suggested, at the open end of a spark plug wire, to see if it will jump at least 1/4" with a good, fat, blue spark. I stick #2 philips in the end of the wire and position it for a gap of that size to the block/head.

Buuuut before you do that, read below:
I looked at your diagram, and the relay wiring looks to be going to the right posts on the new relay. I assume the squiggly line is just an 18ga wire, not a ballast?

However, I see problems with the other wiring into the car. Check to see if you have approximataely 12v from that brown ignition line from D when the key is both in START and in RUN as it needs to be. I am doubting that you will find that to be the case; if the ignition switch is stock, then the brown wire from connection D will only have +12v on it in the START key position and the dark blue wire from connection B will have +12v on it in the RUN position. It is designed to work that way. This will need to be changed in a way that puts +12V on relay terminal 86 in both START and RUN positions.

Also, the yellow wire from bulkhead connection C is not a constant source of power; it is only 'hot' (+12V) in the START position; it is used to activate the starter relay only when cranking. So this is not correctly wired. You need to run a wire from terminal 30 of the relay to a constant +12v source, like the large battery connection terminal on the starter relay.

For testing all of this temporarily, remove the existing wires from relay terminals 86 and 30 and jump 12v direct from the battery to those terminals. Then crank the car from the key switch; if the modules are good, then it should start.

 

[gottagettamopar]

Right, I think I see my mistake in the wiring.
The squiggly line is indeed an 18awg fusible link.
I think the yellow from terminal C is correct. It goes to the stock starter relay as normal and the engine is cranking.
I see what you're saying with regards to brown and blue. These originally ran through either side of the ballast, which has now been removed and then to coil +. The usual solution looks like just splicing them together.
I think I'll join them at the ignition side of the regulator and then run a separate wire from the regulator to terminal 86 on the relay. I can then retain the power line from the power stud at terminal 30.
This gives me "start" and "run" voltage at 86 and constant power at 30.
Fingers crossed.
Cheers

 

[sleepar]

Don't want to be a dick (somebody's already got that job) but how about checking a few basics: #1 cylinder is on the driver's side front, followed by #3, #5 and #7 heading toward the firewall. #2 cylinder is on the passenger side front, followed by #4, #6 and #8 heading toward the firewall. The firing order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 in a COUNTER clockwise orientation on the distributor cap. I don't know your level of experience and certainly don't want to insult you. Just trying to help.

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I think I've just been insulted, but I sure have gotten a lot of engines started with 'starting' fluid. I guess I'll just follow my elders' advice and 'consider the source'.

Not ment to be an insult... one of my soft spots.... hate to see someone spraying or dumping crap in a motor... when setting up and checking everything a few times is time better spent burning you're eyebrows off... I really love it when a motor has 10 year old oil in it and it will start run great... but that 10 minutes cost the rings and bearings..... a flush and cleaning then start would have saved machine shop services... to each there own... I prefer to learn new and better methods... but I could be wrong... so spray away with the fluid that will melt certain parts in you're carb you won't notice till a year later

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I would get a new ignition switch for the price of a can of fluid... they always go bad sooner than later and can cause similar problems especially if you have a heavy set of keys hanging from it....

 

[coloradodave]

Not ment to be an insult... one of my soft spots.... hate to see someone spraying or dumping crap in a motor... when setting up and checking everything a few times is time better spent burning you're eyebrows off... I really love it when a motor has 10 year old oil in it and it will start run great... but that 10 minutes cost the rings and bearings..... a flush and cleaning then start would have saved machine shop services... to each there own... I prefer to learn new and better methods... but I could be wrong... so spray away with the fluid that will melt certain parts in you're carb you won't notice till a year later

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A little off course there. Starting fluid used under the right circumstances is not a problem. Since you spray it directly down through the venturis there is no chance that it is going to 'melt' parts of the carburetor. And as far as "burning your eyebrows off", I would hope that most of us know not to be looking down the carburetor when you spray the fluid and not to crank the motor until you're standing back a bit... Please understand that I'm not advocating the use of starting fluid, but under the right conditions, it's another tool.

 

[gottagettamopar]

It lives....it lives..I nearly choked to death when all the unburnt fuel came through but alelujah...it started!
Big thanks to everyone that posted and especially to nm9stheham for spotting the wiring error.
I corrected the wiring and got what sounded like a 180 out of timing backfire. So I went through and checked everything again from scratch but this time I took off the valve cover to check compression stroke on TDC. Wouldn't you know it, I was 180 out on the dizzy. I spun the dizzy and advanced to just off zero degrees timing...hey presto...burst into life immediately.
Lessons learned:
1. Check the basics and get someone else to check too.
2. If it doesn't seem obvious, it probably is.
3. Don't assume anything that you've already checked is correct.
4. Get advice from fellow bbodies.
I've re-posted the corrected wiring diagram in "electrical and ignition".
Cheers

 

[coloradodave]

Congratulations and kudos to nm9stheham. Good call. Gotta love the resources on this forum.