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I was telling someone this story about Audioslave, I'll repeat here.

How about this analogy….90% or better drop out rate in BUDS (basic underwater demolition school). Those that make it dug down deep, mind over matter, will and determination, work through the physical pain and graduate. The others drop out on their own request, fail or are hurt and get recycled. The failed, most don’t have what it takes.
 
I'm not brazen enough personally to call someone who didn't make it through buds a name. Maybe those who did make it, have that right. But is it the human thing to do to exercise that right?
 
Seriously? You compare suicide to not making the cut
 
How about this analogy….90% or better drop out rate in BUDS (basic underwater demolition school). Those that make it dug down deep, mind over matter, will and determination, work through the physical pain and graduate. The others drop out on their own request, fail or are hurt and get recycled. The failed, most don’t have what it takes.
What's your point? Are you saying the 90% of elite, highly trained military candidates that don't get through the BUDS are pussies and cowards? And if they are, how does that relate to the everyday population, mentally ill, who would actually want to feel normal, happy if they could, but for myriad reasons (different in each case), can't find a way out.
 
I’m saying those that do make it, dig in. Period!
 
How about this analogy….90% or better drop out rate in BUDS (basic underwater demolition school). Those that make it dug down deep, mind over matter, will and determination, work through the physical pain and graduate. The others drop out on their own request, fail or are hurt and get recycled. The failed, most don’t have what it takes.
Are you serious, BUDS as an analogy for a death due to suicide. Put me on your ignore list. I only wish the best for you and your family and it's a shame you can't feel that for those that have died. Thinning the herd is what you said. Does that include veterans or just what is fashionable this week for you. It's either all or none. Pick one.
 
life isn’t an officer and a gentleman but if memory serves. Sid from the movie made it through and still took his own life. Shitty analogy.
 
Suicide is selfish. Period. My opinion, you have yours.
 
I was comparing the Mt Everest analogy.
 
I can’t 100 percent disagree with the selfish part. But. You can’t say it’s being selfish given the mind frame of people that have mental illness period.it shows no compassion for your fellow humans. It’s easy to say if you haven’t been directly affected by it. I’d like to believe it’s not being selfish but some feel it’s the only way to make the voices stop and make the pain stop. It’s very insensitive to those that have had to pick up the pieces after such a tragedy.
 
I think for those that have terrible incurable diseases or injuries, if the family is okay with it, assisted suicide should be a legal option. I also understand those that have been close to and hurt by a suicide, the friends and family affected want to find a way to forgive those that committed suicide. I still think it is a permanent solution to what is too often a temporary problem that hurts those around them forever.
 
Anger is part of the grieving process and to point that anger at "the victim" is "easy" and quite common.
 
I do wonder about people like Cornell and Cobain, who seemed to be "on top of the world" at the time.

Obviously not the same situation as someone, like my cousin, who is dying at the time and knows they will only get worse and possibly suffer for a prolonged period of time, affecting their family until nature finally takes it's course.
 
I can understand if there is a debilitating disease, horrible accident. Perhaps I should’ve said that earlier. What I’m referring to is those that seem to have it all, off themselves. I get why Kurt did it, his wife is a skank, but that’s what divorce is for.
 
I can understand if there is a debilitating disease, horrible accident. Perhaps I should’ve said that earlier. What I’m referring to is those that seem to have it all, off themselves. I get why Kurt did it, his wife is a skank, but that’s what divorce is for.
It's a disease, just because you can't see it on the outside, doesn't mean it's not there. Have you ever seen a car in a handicap parking spot and a person gets out and walks away like you or me. We wonder why the lazy *** doesn't park in the back like we do. We have no idea what's going on inside that we can't see. Just because you and I don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there.
 
Cobain was actually troubled that his music was too popular and didn't fit with his anti-establishment philosophy.
 
Now you’re comparing a seeable handicap to something that we can’t see.
 
Maybe instead of preaching, everyone should try listening.

I was thinking about this yesterday and trying to cool off about it a bit. I realized a few things. First, someone considering suicide isn't thinking about others. They are thinking about themselves. Trying to figure themselves out. Trying to figure out what is going on inside their own head; inside their own life. Period. It is truly the ultimate selfish act, and that is the root of it as well as being the guide to stopping it.

You have NO idea what goes on inside the head of someone contemplating taking their own life, unless/until you have been there yourself.

Many times...THEY have no idea until it is over - one way, or the other.

Don't tell...ASK.

Don't talk...LISTEN.

If you are trying to help someone in that situation, as soon as you use the word "I"...you've lost. YOU, are not the point. YOU, are not the focus. THEY are. YOU, do not matter. Only THEY do.

As soon as you try to TELL them something...you lose the battle. They will build a wall immediately. Part of that is the stigma that this is a "weakness"; part of that is human nature, and when you are most vulnerable you are most susceptible to human nature. This is not about convincing them of anything; it is about helping them convince themselves. Learning about themselves. This is a discovery process, not a lesson. Ask questions - through that, not only do YOU learn things...but so do they. THEY start to explore what is going on, in their own way and at their own pace, and what the thought process is that has led them there, and from there, with guidance and support, they can begin to explore why they are there...and possibly/hopefully, how to get out.

Suicide is ABSOLUTELY a choice. But, it's a choice made with incomplete data. People need to be able to discover ALL the data; ALL the factors. You can't tell them; you have to ASK them, until they start to discover it for themselves.

TELLING them? Pisses them off and minimizes their value (which is generally the root cause of the whole thing anyway).
Comparing them to others? Same thing.
Telling them what they're doing is hurting others? Same result.

ASK them. Let THEM talk. And if you can't handle it (most cannot; we are not wired to think this way, we're wired for self-preservation; many people simply can't comprehend the process these people are going through, and have no idea what to do), find someone who can. Someone trained and qualified. Don't tell them...guide them. Better yet, bring the pro to them, introduce them as a friend, and sit and talk. About anything BUT what's going on at first. Avoid the pressure. Avoid the analysis. Avoid the sense of purpose. Just....be with them. Think of an abused dog - you have to simply be with them and get them to trust you, before anything else can happen.

If you've had people "die in your arms"...forget them. They are gone. It sucks, but it's a fact. You have to focus - solely - on the person still in front of you, if you want to do any good. And if you're worried about yourself in any of this process...you are not the right person for the job. Period.

In the end...it is up to THEM, not you. As noted above - some can cut it, some can't. You can't carry them. That will only postpone it. They have to do it themselves. There is no other way. All you can do is guide, support, and try to help them learn. It is the most graphic representation of Natural Selection - survival of the fittest, only the strong survive. Again - it sucks. But...that's what it is. Period. If you don't like it; if you can't cope with it...hand it off, because you will do more harm than good by fumbling around.

It isn't about you saving them.

It's all about helping them learn how to save themselves.

Some can...some can't.
 
Disagree.
 
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